Different Idea on a tech tree

[juballs2001]

Divide the tech tree up into 4 or 5 parts sort of like what is done in rise of nations. However the turn based game of civ must have this slightly modified. Set one up for military, one for religion, one for economics, one for education and one for politics. How u didvide ur money up into each of these could create a very different game experience every time. There may already be a thread started on this but i didnt look so sorry. But you could have advantages and disadvantages given to warring nations depending on what path of techs they have taken. Just my opinion but i think it would be cool.Open to ur thoughts and opinions.

-Juballs

 

[stgelven]

i think that the tree tech have to be different for each kind of civ (militaristic, agricole, etc) with different cost for each techs, like that the game will be much complicated.

 

[Mewtarthio]

Stgelven- Sorry, but I really don't like this idea. Civ is about rewriting history. You shouldn't be forced to follow a preset path.

@ Topic Creator - No offense, but this is probably the tenth topic on this.

 

[croxis]

I'm for the idea that civ attributes are based on what you research and use over time, combining the civ 2 tech tree with civ 3

 

[drwsince1987]

Well then if I focus most of my research on one thing and my bneighbor is military, they can treat me like crap cuz i have no military/upgraded units.

 

[stgelven]

no offense, we can all thinking what we want, discuss is a step forward...

well, i think that some techs are much complicated to be discovered by some civs, for ex nuclear power for many countries. So it could be good to have the possibility to include that in the diffrent tree techs. that's what i an thinking.

 

[dh_epic]

I think it IS about rewriting history too. And right now the forced path/order doesn't work for that. And dividing different paths for different cultures might really mess things up worse.

Having seperate areas to focus is interesting. Like you could progress a lot militarily and still be a socially "backwards" nation. I think that's an important part of reality and history. I know this topic has been raised before, but I'd like to throw some weight behind it once again.

 

[rhialto]

My proposal...

Items highlighted in blue are optional to the basic model here, but highly recommended.

First, most techs are divided into several key areas. These are: Seafaring, Agricultural, Industrial, Commercial, Militaristic, Religious, Scientific. Yes, these correspond to the civ3 traits. This is intentional.

Using the civ3 ancient techs as a model (as a *model*, these aren't set in stone), these would be placed as follows:

• Expansionist - the wheel, horseback riding
• Seafaring - map making
• Agricultural - pottery
• Industrial - construction, masonry
• Commercial - currency, code of law, mathematics
• Militaristic - bronze working, iron working, warrior code
• Religious - ceremonial burial, mysticism, polytheism
• Scientific - philosophy, alphabet, writing, republic, literature, monarchy

Seafaring, agricultural, industrial, commercial, and militaristic techs are part of the standard researchable tech tree.

For all techs that are researched as part of the standard tech tree system (all except religious and science techs), Each tech in a given category gives a 5% bonus to any tech research made in the same category.

Religious and scientific techs are NOT researched directly. You have no control over their research. Instead...

• You accumulate one 'meme' per population point in your empire.
• You also accumulate memes for population points in allied nations (1/2 rate), trading partners (1/4 rate) and civs known to exist (1/10 rate). Only known populations count. If you only have information about half a foreign empire, only that half counts.
• Science type city improvements can multiply any memes going towards science techs. Religious improvements can multiply memes going towards religious techs.
• The exact ratio of religion:science memes produced corresponds to the % of income devoted to science research. This models the way that strongly religious societies can gain religious techs but simultaneously tend to stunt scientific research.
• Thus, raising the science rate will boost regular research and science memes, but hurt religion memes. Lowering the science rate will hurt regular research and science memes, but boost religion memes.
• At any given moment, a civ will have 3 techs being researched simultaneously; a player-chosen normal tech, a randomly chosen scientific meme, and a randomly chosen religious meme.

Civs with one of the main tech traits get a 20% bonus to research in that trait. Civs with scientific trait get a 10% across the board bonus (except scientific/religious trait techs). Religious civs get no research bonus. In a game where civ traits have been disabled, this paragraph will of course become irrelevant.


Note that all bonuses listed here are added together; they are not compounded like city improvement bonuses. Having 2 relevant techs plus the relevant civ trait results in all beakers being multiplied by (1 + 0.2 + 0.05 + 0.05 = 1.3), not (1 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.05 = 1.323).

Next, while most techs will require the standard 0-2 techs as a prerequisite, there should be additional requirements in some cases. You can't study horse riding if you don't have horses, or how to work iron without a source of iron. This does of course imply that the resources will appear a tech or two before they do in civ3. Also, because some techs will have prereqs from a different tree, research will be more complicated.

 

[plastiqe]

Its a cool idea rhialto, two things though. It seems real complicated and whats a 'meme"?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hi Rhialto,

Though I only had time to skim your idea, what I have read of it does look REALLY COOL! I have long felt that 'religious' and 'social' techs should not simply be acquired through research (though it might help), but be more based on other internal/external factors (like trade, social engineering, population size, infrastructure etc)! The thing I most like about your idea is that it puts a greater penalty on Isolationism as a game tactic-something which DH_Epic has discussed in great detail!
On a final note, I am sure that most 'old-timers' here know that I have been a strong advocate of splitting the tech research into major groups (like naval, economic, military, civic and scientific) and then having a combination of your civ traits AND your research 'funding' determining how you progress in each area. Obviously some techs (like iron working) would be comprised of two groups (in this case, military and economic) meaning that a militaristic/industrial civ might pick up a tech like iron working very easily! Oh, and related to this is my feeling that acquiring tech should be a more random process, where you no longer say 'research iron working', but instead have to content yourself with 'put 30% of research into Economic and 25% into military'. Anyway, just some thoughts!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[rhialto]

One point I would add is that I don't think it should be possible to trade religion and science techs. History has shown that it isn't really possible to force democracy on a nation ("giving" the tech), and where religions has spread, it has usually taken a long time, and can be explained by the social contact (reflected in the rule in my model which discourages isolationism).

@Plastique
I realise the description looks complex, but from the player point of view, the interface is almost identical to regular civ1/2/3. The differences you'd see are:

- A paedia entry (Research Synergy) to highlight that researching within a single branch of techs will make others in that branch easier.
- A paedia entry (Memes) to highlight that religion and science techs are moved from the normal tech tree, and are instead researched using memes. This entry will also highlight how meme 'research' is boosted by particular buildings.
- Every so often, the player will get a popup telling him that "Our [wise men/social scientists/whoever] have discovered the secret of [republic]". Since religion and science tech research is not directed by the player, no extra interface to choose these is needed.
- The payer will notice that the religion and science techs are missing from the usual tech tree.

Incidentally, memes is an idea coined by a British scientist (Richard Dawkins) to explain the flow of ideas through societies. It is a contraction of "mental genes".

http://www.youmeworks.com/whatisameme.html

And in his last chapter, he said genes aren't the only things in this universe that make copies of themselves. There is one other thing that we know of, but there isn't a word for it, so Dawkins made one up: memes. A meme is anything that can be copied from one mind to another.

 

[rhialto]

Extra idea: perhaps the religion and science tech advisor screens are initially hidden with research chosen randomly, but once "Memetics" (a 1976 science concept) is discovered, the screens become visible and players can then control which ideas to research. Probably a bad idea, as most of these techs will already have been researched by that point.

 

[dh_epic]

I think you nailed the essence of what I love so much about this idea, rhialto.

There are many different kinds of progress throughout history. But only a few can be truly taught. The others kind of need to be discovered for yourself.

A "greedy" strategy emerges (also known in AI as a short-sighted strategy). What's the big deal about nationalism and democracy when you can have dudes running around with rocket launchers? And man, if I want to stay ahead of the competition, I need to keep researching new tanks. I don't have time to discover steady-state economics, or intersubjectivism.

Next thing you know, my people are poor, ignorant, and angry. But I guess it's a good thing I have those rocket launchers. And what do I need democracy for when the only way I can keep things in order is to becomea ruthless dictator?

I guess it's true what they say -- you sleep in the bed you make.

That's how I'd like to see the tech tree affect the game.

 

[rhialto]

Hmm, I've noticed a slight flaw in the model. A strongly militarist player will still maximise science research. And whether science is maximised or minimised, he will continue to gain [science/religion] techs at the same rate. This militarist player would still build libraries and such in order to get his rocket launchers that much faster.

Damnit. I just shot my own horse out from under me!

 

[dh_epic]

I don't think you necessarily destroyed your own model... let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I think the key is making order matter. If you research big military first, and then go back for the social techs, you may have a much harder time than if you just researched the social techs first. The idea being that as you become more militaristic, you consolidate your power and limit the chance your people have to think, learn, express, and explore -- all keys to social progress.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually guys, I think my 'morality' model might come to the rescue here!! The militaristic player who maximises military technology, at the expense of all else, is going to find him/herself lagging behind on the 'relative morality' scale (from my 'adding a moral element' thread). This will, in turn, effect your own peoples happiness levels AND diminish your overall reputation in the eyes of your neighbours (which if I understand your model correctly, Rhialto, will effect your ability to pick up religious and social techs still further!) This is especially important if social, economic AND technological development are required in order to progress from one age to another!! It will also have negative impacts on trade and also possibly prevent you from gaining one of the games 'victory conditions'. Last of all, focussing on military research could also alter one of your civ traits to 'Militaristic', causing you to lose any and all benefits of the trait that it replaces (which could be devestating!)
So, what do you reckon, a mild 'integration' of 'morality' and 'tech research'?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

Well, militaristic only if you use it. I'd have a hard time seeing moral decay within a society that pursues arms. Only moral decay in a society that breaks its agreements and initiates violence.

But labels aside, I think your mind is in the right place. Pursuing military technology with no attention to social progress would make your people unhappy, and make it harder and harder to make social progress... or maybe any kind of progress.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, in my model, increased unhappiness leads to decreased output from your various commercial, industrial, research and even military improvements. This would lead to a cut in your tech advance rate, your wealth and your productive output (probably in that order!) These all, of course, feed back IN to unhappiness levels, and so you could end up with a 'feed-back loop' if you don't curtail the unhappiness by some means!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[rhialto]

Thanks, I think you restored my faith ion my model. A militaristic (in research) player will still still scoop the social techs as long as he doesn't go to war. Once he goes to war, the social intercourse from other civs will dry up that source of meme research due to the drop in political relations.

Also, it occurred to me that it isn't researching military tech that stunts social growth, it is applying that tech. This can be implemented by giving controlled governments a penalty on social science research. Equally, Communism and Theocracy governments should have a penalty on religious meme research (both, for their own reasons, don't want new religious ideas appearing). And imposing a military economy (civ3 mobilisation) or conscripting citizens should reduce meme research again.

This allows me to expand one of my other pet peeves about governments. In civ1/2, each government had a cap on spending in each category, and some have tile bonuses or penalties. Instead of all that, I'd like for each government to have an efficiency multiplier on output within each category. For example, Despotism might have x 0.75 industry and food, approximating the original tile penalty, while democracy would have x 1.5 trade, again approximating the original tile bonus. By fine-tuning these values, you could make interesting differences between governments. The multipliers on meme research would be just another aspect of this. This could even be refined into specific tech classes. A modern social democracy would have a penalty on military tech research, an Ecotopia a penalty on industrial techs, etc.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I agree that social and religious techs should be researched differently then military or infrastructure techs. What about this: % of your cities (or a fixed number depending on mapsize) have to have a library in order to be able to research the republic. The same for universities/democracy or barracks/fascism or police stations/communism? I dont know enough information on how they will implement religion to give a comment an that.

However, these are ideas based on the current social engineering concept with just so few governments, I hope they will change towards a more SMAC like government system as proposed in the threat "ideas on new governments".

I agree that rhialtos idea has its points, but I would prefer a more simple solution and I think the design team would want to keep things simple and more comprehensive. (more potential customers).