Diplomacy Central

We've already broken it, from what I understand. I've been going through The Vault, and the only relevant bits that concern war and peace were in the First MAAP Treaty:
This Peace Treaty will last indefinitely, and can only be cancelled by 15 turns' written notice

As far as I can tell, there is nothing at all about this in any subsequent treaties.

Therefore, we have already violated the MAAPI Treaty, by signing a MPP with Gong, which resulted in a DOW against FREE.


Having reread the last several posts here, I've revised my position: I'm with Niklas at 2.5 :blush:

Our DOW was a misclick, and that's not a very compelling reason to break a treaty (unless, of course, FREE has already pressed an attack!)
 
I agree with Niklas, we should not spoil our excellent reputation easily. :shake:

And if we do, we should make sure that we have a good preparation to hurt them big time and that our Allies are at least benevolent. :old:

To seize this accidental situation is diplomatically not better than backstabbing right away. We should be content with the confusion my error might have inflicted but if we want to do serious damage, we should better prepare ourselves.

FREE is also already hurt by the cancelled lux deal. I bet that already causes them some trouble, they probably have their slider at 40% luxury at least and lots of specialists assigned :p

I don't think it's clever to give up our comfortable neutral position now... :nono:
 
Now we got an official request from GONG to take part in their war with FREE actively.

The chance to do some real damage to FREE is good. :groucho:
However we won't hit them that hard that they won't be a threat anymore :nono:
Chance is also not too bad that they leave GONG alone and concentrate on hitting us instead. Maybe they won't succeed, but maybe that cost us so many resources that it makes SABER the real winners.

We should also remember that we are at war with FREE only by tsote (trading system or turnplayer's error) and this is neither obligation nor opportunity to enter a war that is against the honorable Council's treaty with FREE. :old:

So I see basically five options (for this upcoming turn 212) to handle the situation:

1. Do nothing, grab popcorn and keep watching the action.
2. Gift MotTrans (dl123654, cubsfan)
3. Do 2. and gift 1000g to GONG (Paul, Niklas, Peter)
4. Do 3. and move the carrier (add some bombers) and some transports towards FREE's coast to make them think about defense.
5. 2. and actively attack FREE's ships (donsig).

I'm all for option 2. Exactly 2.0 this is.
 
Did we get anything at all back from FREE?
 
Umm... I didn't click "post" twice... :huh:
 
1.7 - definitely. Gift MotTrans and gold (great idea!), but keep our fleet defensive.
 
I modified the options to get more precise opinions.

I rated Niklas' vote as 3.0 because I put the semi-aggressive fleet movement to option 4.

edit: We did not get anything from FREE, IIRC
 
1.7 - definitely. Gift MotTrans and gold (great idea!), but keep our fleet defensive.

:goodjob:

I like this one.

Our reputations is still important as we are not yet in the end game where all morality is thrown out the window and replaced by nukes.
 
Anyone here think we will have to fight FREE at some point in this game?

If we have to fight them someday then how is it going to be easier to beat them later when we stand alone? Wouldn't it be better to have GONG (and BABE) also fighting FREE?

FREE continues to press the attack on GONG so their objective is not only to deprive GONG of a culture win. They could very well be thinking domination. I realize they need three plus continents but GONG is close to folding. Can BABE survive a FREE onslaught, especially if SABER continues to prowl the BABE coast?

I am not ready to vote yet. My gut feeling is we should do as GONG asks and sink some FREE ships. My initial thought is we should keep our gold but send motorized transport. There are questions we should try to answer before setting policy for our next turn:

  • Would a gift of gold help GONG survive? If so, how much would they need?
  • How much gold do we need in reserve for research and our own defenses?
  • Can we sink those FREE transports. If so, what risk do we leave our units in?
  • How complete is our EWS?
  • Is SABER willing ot enter a war against FREE?

Some of these we can't answer till we see the save. Others we need information from GONG and SABER.
 
donsig, you seem to evade the question of our "reputation", which as tomasjj points out isn't totally out of value yet. Do you think we should break the treaty we have?
 
donsig, you seem to evade the question of our "reputation", which as tomasjj points out isn't totally out of value yet. Do you think we should break the treaty we have?

Our reputation with who? We certainly won't have a very good reputation with either GONG or BABE if we stand by and do nothing. Do we really care about our reputation with FREE? We don't even want to trade techs with them any more, so why worry about our reputation with FREE? That leaves SABER. Is SABER going to base a decision to attack us or not attack us solely on our reputation? I doubt it.

We had a peace treaty with BABE long ago and we did not hesitate to break it. That action did not prevent us from forming lucrative alliances. If we had not broken that treaty we would not have remained a viable candidate to win this game. In addition to breaking the BABE treaty, we also have not fulfilled our treaty obligations to FREE since we never sent them military tradition. So the questions are:

  • Can we remain in contention to win this game if we adhere to our treaty and let FREE occupy GONG's lands?
  • Would breaking the treaty with FREE damage our reputation to the point where we had no chance to win?

I can see that GONG is on the verge of elimination and if they are to be saved we must act fast. My skills are not enough to know if this is a game breaking situation. I'd really like to hear what the Council thinks will happen if GONG is eliminated.
 
Anyone here think we will have to fight FREE at some point in this game?
Not sure. We might not find a situation less comfortable for FREE.
But we might find a situation where we are better prepared.
If we have to fight them someday then how is it going to be easier to beat them later when we stand alone? Wouldn't it be better to have GONG (and BABE) also fighting FREE?
Not sure how much support we can expect from BABE (and SABER). They are involved in their own quarrels...
Can BABE survive a FREE onslaught, especially if SABER continues to prowl the BABE coast?
Yes, easily, especially with the techs we supplied and if SABER stays back.
I am not ready to vote yet. My gut feeling is we should do as GONG asks and sink some FREE ships.
I'd love to, but we are not that prepared for such a war. :shake:
Would a gift of gold help GONG survive? If so, how much would they need?
I'd guess they could need all the money they can get.
How much gold do we need in reserve for research and our own defenses?
That's easier to answer. For our short term goal (The Internet) we need ~800g to do four turns of deficite research.
Can we sink those FREE transports. If so, what risk do we leave our units in?
I don't have any glue about FREE's navy except for some landing forces (transports plus some destroyers) and their EWS (destroyers iirc). If they got submarines, they might sink our carrier, no doubt.
Our carrier does not carry bombers and I don't know how the odds are for fighters to sink transports. :dunno:.
How complete is our EWS?
It is in operation. Though the published map does not show it, every tile in our 6-mile-zone is uncovered every turn.
Is SABER willing ot enter a war against FREE?
:dunno:
Our reputation with who? We certainly won't have a very good reputation with either GONG or BABE if we stand by and do nothing. Do we really care about our reputation with FREE? We don't even want to trade techs with them any more, so why worry about our reputation with FREE? That leaves SABER. Is SABER going to base a decision to attack us or not attack us solely on our reputation? I doubt it.
Yes, I do. Not sure if kuningas values us or SABER as the biggest threat but at least he might have some doubt that we are the ones to beat.
If we behave like a lumberjack we might influence his decision... :shifty:
We had a peace treaty with BABE long ago and we did not hesitate to break it. That action did not prevent us from forming lucrative alliances.
That's a completely different story, the public opinion saw BABE as the aggressor. We are not playing the AI here... :rolleyes:
If we had not broken that treaty we would not have remained a viable candidate to win this game. In addition to breaking the BABE treaty, we also have not fulfilled our treaty obligations to FREE since we never sent them military tradition. So the questions are:

  • Can we remain in contention to win this game if we adhere to our treaty and let FREE occupy GONG's lands?

  • Yes we can. The third will be much more difficult to get and the threat might bring the other three parties closer to each other.
    FREE was fighting MDIs and spears. They won't find such an easy opponent any more.
    Would breaking the treaty with FREE damage our reputation to the point where we had no chance to win?
    No, but it might make things difficult if the "public opinion" turns against us...
    I can see that GONG is on the verge of elimination and if they are to be saved we must act fast. My skills are not enough to know if this is a game breaking situation. I'd really like to hear what the Council thinks will happen if GONG is eliminated.
    Not much. The game might go faster but not much as Prince was doing a great job so far.
    Maybe BABE, SABER and The Council ally against the Threat FREE.
    But also maybe BABE and SABER watch FREE attacking The Council... :dunno:

    No question, I'd also like to see GONG survive (that's why I'd gift MotTrans and 1000g) - but I'd like to stay passive for some more time.
 
Gong is still quite far from being on the verge of elimination. Just read their last letter:
Free no longer holds any land on Gong's continent, but they have landed a settler.

I agree with Gifting MotTrans and some gold, as long as the gold doesn't affect our Internet gambit. So what does that make me.... 2.5?

We should also make sure the we have some gold reserves in case Free attacks us, and we need to upgrade / rush some units :scared:
 
I agree with Gifting MotTrans and some gold, as long as the gold doesn't affect our Internet gambit. So what does that make me.... 2.5?
You don't want me to split the options one more time, do you? :huh: :spank:
I'll put you in for 3.0 if you trust me to calculate the needed money for our expenses.

I strongly doubt that FREE will attack us in the next four turns, they won't forego their units on GONG's land easily... :shake:
THAT would be a real surprise, but an expensive one...
 
I agree completely with what Paul says three posts up. :yup:
 
We can always use our delcariation of war as the 10 turn advanced notice, being about to attack in 9 turns.

I would like to keep our money if we can.
 
It is a threat - and a chance. :dunno:

It is not that far a threat that it would double FREE's power. In worst case they will have a new continent with Pyramides.
But it would provide just specialists to them and a higher free unit support. That's not even close to the same benefit of their current continent.
But they will have double effort to defend their land.
And they might face three opponents.

Don't get me wrong, I want GONG to keep FREE busy. To me Prince does not sound like everything is lost. He does not even sound like things were going worse. I think with MotTrans and money we could make it much more difficult for FREE.

With the ww FREE should be already facing, I'm not sure if they can keep their unit stream coming for too long.

Should we ask Prince for a battle log to see what's going on there?
 
I vote for gift motorized transport to gong I don't think gold should do much.
 
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