Diplomacy Central

[AutomatedTeller]

I would like GONG to be a strong ally for us.

1000 g and Motorized Transport would pretty much ensure their survival and tie them very strongly to us - I think it would be very difficult for FREE or SABER to attack us with the knowledge that they are taking on, essentially, two opponents.

 

[General_W]

What do we think about proposing a global ban on Nukes in the UN?

If we could get Saber and FREE to sign on - it'd be pretty awesome.

We could tell Saber it's a good deal for them - because FREE has a large military and is an even bigger threat to them with their Hoover powered cities cranking out Nukes.

We could tell FREE that it's a good deal for them - because Saber is ahead technologically, and could get ICBMs long before they do.

Or would we just get totally slapped down = therefore it's not worth the effort?
Thoughts?

 

[Niklas]

If we have nothing to lose if such a ban goes through, then I see no reason why we shouldn't propose it. 'No' is the worst that could come out of it. Good thinking.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Well, we do already have an anti-nuke treaty with Saber which is good. They can only cancel it with 15 turns notice. If Free wants to try for nukes, they'll likely be dogpiled by us and Saber.

Also, Free still doesn't have fission. They need 4 techs to be able to build tactical nukes and invade with modern armor (their best chance at succeeding with an invasion). They need 5 techs if they want ICBM's as well. By then we should be much stronger and closer to getting to space. I really don't know how Free expects to win going for so much tech, their best bet is to rush to synthetic fibers and upgrade tanks with Leonardo's and invade either us or Saber. Maybe they think mechs and tanks are enough to try invasion already?

I think we should put a global ban on nukes on the back-burner until we see what develops.

 

[Niklas]

Correction - there's no 15 turns notice for the anti-nuke clause with SABER, it's indefinite. We have both promised not to use nukes on the other while any other team remains alive.

Hmm, a new aspect of saving a BABE settler just occured to me...

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Ah, even sweeter. Does that new use of a Babe settler include the UN, perhaps?

 

[Niklas]

Well, the aspect that I was referring to was that SABER has promised not to nuke us while any other team is alive. And that must of course include BABE...

 

[donsig]

Would be tough getting a diplomatic win now. With four left we'd need three votes. Also, many on the Council see a diplo win as worse than a loss.

I'm not so sure it's a good idea to propose a nuclear non-proliferation treaty, though I'm not at all convinced it is a bad idea either. As usual I am

I'm afraid that proposing it will show how fearful we are of the beasties, our recent Dr. Strangelove declaration. But as Niklas said the worst we can get is a no. It might be helpful to see just who says no. Of course this would just be another promise we'd be expecting SABER and FREE to keep (if they agreed to the ban).

I'm also wondering if we shouldn't just build Manhattan ourselves. Nukes are a very good way to eliminate an invasion force.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Yeah, diplo win is impossible unless Free should be eliminated. If it came down to us, Saber and a Babe settler we could win, though. We would only want to try if Saber was a runaway and somehow our SS attempt was stopped. This would be considered worse than a loss to a Saber team that got where they are in part by using spies? I wonder how mad Saber will be if they eliminate all Babes cities only to find we're harboring a settler?

Why not just negotiate an anti-nuke treaty with Free since we already have one with Saber? If they want to nuke each other, ok by us. Also, if we can get such a treaty wouldn't it mean we can't use nukes on any invasion fleets spotted? I guess our treaty with Saber already prevents us from using nukes on any invasion fleet they may send our way in the future.

 

[General_W]

I'm not sure where all the talk of a diplomatic win came from?

But at any rate - if we decide we'd personally rather forgo Nukes ourselves (and give up the awesome naval-SOD-killer ability), then I think we DO want to raise this issue before anyone can actually build nukes.

A key part of our argumentation to FREE will be to encourage them to sign this treaty before Saber can get nukes.
Once FREE has the ability to build nukes, we have far less to put on the table for them.

I'd propose starting this by sending out two letters...
#1 to FREE

Dear FREE friends,

While we wait for the mess of the phony war to settle down - we thought we'd approach you with the germ of an idea we had - and get your take on it.

We'd like to talk about... Nuclear Weapons *dramatic music plays*

We're kicking an idea around the halls of the Council about proposing a global ban on building/using Nuclear weapons. It'd only go into force if all three of the surviving major powers agreed to it - and we'd pretty much all commit ourselves to the old-fashioned military ways of combat.

We think this holds several bonuses for you:

1. Dramatically reduces your exposure to Saber (and/or The Council's) technology lead
2. Protects your current edge in regular [read: tanks] military forces
3. Prevents possible ICBM retaliation against your homeland that can skip past any sea based defenses

What do you think?
If you're interested in the idea - we'll propose it in the UN, and see if we can get Saber to agree to it.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

#2 to Saber

Dear Saber Allies,

While we wait for your response on our first ExODAT proposal...

We'd like to talk about... Nuclear Weapons *dramatic music plays*

We're kicking an idea around the halls of the Council about proposing a global ban on building/using Nuclear weapons. It'd only go into force if all three of the surviving major powers agreed to it - and we'd pretty much all commit ourselves to the old-fashioned military ways of combat.

We think this holds several bonuses for you:

1. Dramatically reduces your exposure to the possibility of FREE mass-producing Nukes with their HooverDam powered cities
2. Protects you from trying to defend against FREE's massive hordes of tanks rampaging across a post-apocalyptic landscape of your territory
3. Brings FREE in (and, of course, expands) the already existing treaty in place between our two peoples.

What do you think?
If you're interested in the idea - we'll propose it in the UN, and see if we can get FREE to agree to it.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Thoughts on sending those two letters out?

 

[peter grimes]

Initial thoughts, written without the benefit of a tasty dinner in my stomach:

A: Seems like we're limiting our own options, which could be OK, except for the fact that we're broadcasting to the other teams our intentions of avoiding armed conflict at all costs... forcing them to consider invading us with an overwhelming stack of combined arms. Very difficult to react to, no?

B: If they can't use Nukes, then neither can we... can we afford to be so confident that we can hold off a well-planned non-nuclear invasion?

C: Completely leaves open the possibility that one of the 'Three Major Powers' will gift Babe into the Nuclear Era, and have this proxy launch attacks in advance of an invasion.

D: It's really jumping the gun on this topic when we don't even have a signed ExODAT, and are still in a 5, 7, 10? turn holding pattern of non-Peace War with Free

 

[AutomatedTeller]

true - but gifting BABE to get nuclear weapons requires at least 4 turns, so we would have a lot of warning.

1) Atomic theory
2) Electronics
3) Rocketry and Fission
4) Space flight

then a turn to flip prebuilds over. For FREE to do it, they would have to have space flight. SABER is at war with BABE, so they aren't likely.

 

[RFHolloway]

Once free or saber are eliminated wouldn't a diplomatic victory only need 2 votes? So if we voted for BABE....


(That would be the only diplomatic victory I would go for)

 

[donsig]

I think we'd be better off just trying for a bilateral pact with FREE concerning nukes. This would compliment our agreement with SABER while sill allowing us to build nukes if someone builds Manhattan. It also allows FREE and SABER to devastate each other.

 

[Paul#42]

I think we'd be better off just trying for a bilateral pact with FREE concerning nukes. This would compliment our agreement with SABER while sill allowing us to build nukes if someone builds Manhattan. It also allows FREE and SABER to devastate each other.

I'm still surprised that SABER accepted (even suggested) that nuclear weapons ban clause in our treaty.
They must have been thinking FREE as their potential target all the way.

If we find a similar agreement with FREE, we could feel remotely save from our worst concern.

I doubt that FREE or SABER will be able to beat the other. chamnix vs. kuningas.
So there remain two other threats:
1. One of them breaks their treaty with us.
2. One of them invades us with conventional weapons.

The first will provide at least a bad taste.
The second is something we are preparing for. Still a challenge but manageable.

So yes, let's try to get a bilateral nuclear weapon ban with FREE.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

I'm all for asking for a bilateral nuke ban with Free, but shouldn't we wait for them to reply to our last letter asking for peace before we negotiate another treaty? They still don't have fission much less space flight and might never have it, so why the urgency for a treaty with them?

Since we got Babes world map which included Gong's world map as well, have you noticed all the fortresses and barricades around Saber's capital? All the towns on their continent have walls as well and there's some forest planted on the beach. I don't think they were worried about an invasion from the Council or the backwards Babes or Gongers, but certainly they expect or are worried of an attack from Free at some point.

 

[Paul#42]

That's an interesting observation...

Maybe they are afraid that FREE and us are close to each other and our phoney war is just a deviation from our alliance

And they might have their homeland almost deserted from military to put the necessary pressure on the BABE campaign. Of course a nation involved into a distant war is more vulnerable to an attack than a nation preparing to defend their homeland with all they've got...

A quick attack with three ship loads of marines and tanks might cause quite some trouble to SABER right now... They won't have their coastal towns guarded by 5 Mech Infs each. They (and FREE) might suspect we have.

I still think we have a really comfortable situation here with both FREE and SABER providing quite a target with their recent campaigns.

No reason to feel too comfortable though

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, I'm not all that sure I would trust us.

We have, after all, broken two peace treaties. One was by accident and the other was with provocation, but we HAVE broken the treaties.

We are also pretty clearly responsible for BABE having tanks, too, and we are sending them stuff.

We maybe should think about barricades, too.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Well, the Council is and has been weak to Saber for quite some time and Gong noticed those barricades and fortresses about 40-50 turns ago, long before the modern age.

Hey, fortresses and barricades are pretty good. Together thats a 100% defense bonus and tanks can't roll through. Takes an awful lot of worker turns we don't really have to set up though. Plus we don't have a lot of spare units to defend them with.

 

[Yilar]

We can just put them up in strategic places that will prevent a 1 turn walk over.