Diplomatic Policies Elimination Thread

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Siptah

Eternal Chieftain
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This is a thread where we subtract three points to one policy card but add one point to another policy card for their usefulness. Note that each user can only hurt and heal once every 24 hours.

As a friendly reminder, please state a rationale for the addition and subtraction of points.

I chose to do this with Diplomatic cards, since I think most of them are good, you usually only have one or two spots for them (which means there is a lot of competition) and only one cards gets obsolete throughout the game. I left both of these cards in, since they come for very different eras and compete against quite different cards for a spot. You might as well use Charismatic Leader for most of the game, but never use Gunboat Diplomacy in the later stages since you might prefer to get more out of the envoys you already have instead of more envoys for example.
I know it's not as interesting as rating leaders... but still. I'm curious what the outcome will be.

Here are the cards to give an overview:

Charismatic Leader: +2 influence points per turn (later obsoleted by gunboat diplomacy)
Diplomatic League: The first envoy you send to each City State counts as 2 envoys
Merchant Confederation: +1 Gold from each of your city-state Envoys
Machiavellianism: +50% Production towards Spies. Spy operations take 25% less time.
Raj: +2 Science, Culture, Faith and Gold from all city-states you're Suzerain of
Police State: Enemy Spy levels reduced by 2 in your lands. However, all cities suffer -1 Amenity
Nuclear Espionage: Spies who steal a tech boost without being detected gain an extra boost
Arsenal of Democracy: Your trade Routes to an ally's city provide +2 Food and Production for both cities
Gunboat Diplomacy: Open Borders with all City-States, and +4 influence points per turn towards earning Envoys
Cryptography: Enemy Spy level reduced by 2 in your lands. Your Spy level is increased by 1 for offensive operations
Containment: Each Envoy you send to a City-State counts as two, if its Suzerain has different government than you
International Space Agency: +10% Science per City-State you are the Suzerain of
Collective Activism: +10% Culture per City-State you are the Suzerain of


Here's the ranking:

1. :trophy: Charismatic Leader
2.:trophy2nd: Merchant Confederation
3.:trophy3rd: Gunboat Diplomacy
4. :trophy2: Cryptography
5. :trophy2: Diplomatic League
6. Machiavellianism
7. Containment
8. International Space Agency
9. Arsenal of Democracy
10. Collective Activism
11. Nuclear Espionage
12. Raj
13. Police State

And to get started:

Charismatic Leader 20
Diplomatic League 20
Merchant Confederation 20
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 20
Police State 20
Nuclear Espionage 20
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 20
Cryptography 20
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
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Charismatic Leader 21 (20+1)
Diplomatic League 20
Merchant Confederation 20
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 17 (20-3)
Police State 20
Nuclear Espionage 20
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 20
Cryptography 20
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20

There are stronger diplomatic cards than C.L., but it is available for a far longer chunk of the game than they are.
Raj doesn't give enough returns by the time it comes along to warrant using.
 
Charismatic Leader 21
Diplomatic League 20
Merchant Confederation 20
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 17
Police State 17 (20-3) Never had nearly enough trouble with foreign spies to even consider using this one.
Nuclear Espionage 20
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21 (20+1) I love this one even though it comes too late to use for long, usually.
Cryptography 20
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
Charismatic Leader 22 (21+1) this is really the card I use for most of the game, especially if I have more than one spot. I almost never change it until gunboat diplomacy comes around when I have 2 spots
Diplomatic League 20
Merchant Confederation 20
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 14 (17-3) it looks great at first, but it comes way too late for the small bonuses it gives. Maybe it's different on low difficulties and Apadana with lots of wonders. But as it is right now, it's not good a deal. Maybe let it give what it does for every CS you send 6 envoys to? Or just increase what it gives and let it rival the later +science/+culture cards?
Police State 17
Nuclear Espionage 20
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 20
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
Charismatic Leader 22
Diplomatic League 20
Merchant Confederation 20+1=21 - It can make you some decent amount of money in late game.
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 14
Police State 17
Nuclear Espionage 20-3=17 - I almost never use spies, so I find it kinda useless.
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 20
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
Charismatic Leader 22
Diplomatic League 20
Merchant Confederation 21
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 14 - 3 = 11 too little benefit even if earlier
Police State 17
Nuclear Espionage 17
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 20 +1 = 21 good timing, good benefit, tricky decision to use, I like cards that compete
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/voice-acting-elimination-thread.612835/
 
Charismatic Leader 23 (22 + 1) This is my favorite early game policy for diplomacy.
Diplomatic League 17 (20 - 3) Not very good compared to the above policy and doesn't work sometimes
Merchant Confederation 21
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 11
Police State 17
Nuclear Espionage 17
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 21
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 17
Merchant Confederation 21
Machiavellianism 20
Raj 11
Police State 14 (17 - 3) - just absolutely terrible, -1 amenity per city is an absolutely game breaking malus and the bonus is not that good, Raj may be useless but at least it doesn't cripple your empire
Nuclear Espionage 17
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 22 (21 + 1) - really not quite as good as Charismatic Leader but it can be huge late game
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 17
Merchant Confederation 21
Machiavellianism 21 (20+1) - if i go crazy on spy game, especially if i'm pushing for culture victory, i kinda like this one. Really fast build time for expensive unit, and nice bonus to steal yet another great work. I swear i manage to steal ridiculous amount sometimes.
Raj 11
Police State 11 (14-3) - kinda situational, maybe in heavy spy game. But even then, lot's of different, higher quality choices. In my first round i give this one -3.
Nuclear Espionage 17
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 22
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 18 (+1) - While weak in Ancient Era, if you pick this first in later starts you can get a hefty bonus early on to push yourself those few extra few miles.
Merchant Confederation 21
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8 (-3) - I think it's too weak to be fair, (although I don't think highly of many of these), and I think that because of the number of competition for allegiances, it is often useless in the long-run.
Police State 11
Nuclear Espionage 17
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 22
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 20
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 18
Merchant Confederation 22 (21+1) if you pay attention to CS quests, this can bring in a ton of money
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Police State 11
Nuclear Espionage 17
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 22
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 17 (20-3) Never used it, comes too late, seems like it would only be useful to try to prevent another civ from winning a cultural victory
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 18
Merchant Confederation 22
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Police State 11
Nuclear Espionage 14 (17-3) - I rarely manage to still one boost. By the time I get it I'm already ahead
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 23 (22+1) - good to stop AI spies ruining my industry
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 17
 
Please note; I pretty much always vote at around 9pm NZ time (12 hours ahead of Greenwich). I couldn't vote then tonight, but I will return to that time tomorrow.

Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 18
Merchant Confederation 23 (22+1)
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Police State 11
Nuclear Espionage 11 (14-3)
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 23
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 17

M.C. is def a good money spinner, usually turning out more gold than any other specific card.
I probably don't use spies enough to value N.E., but it also looks very situational when compared to other cards available at the time.
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 19 (18+1) if you can have met a lot of CS, this card can make a difference. It's just not really worth it when you unlock it.
Merchant Confederation 23
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Police State 8 (11-3) I think this is by far the worst. Maybe not so in MP when everyone is spying like crazy, but against the AI: completely unnecessary.
Nuclear Espionage 11
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 23
Containment 20
International Space Agency 20
Collective Activism 17
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 19
Merchant Confederation 23
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Police State 5 (8 - 3) I already voted against it but it's just that bad. Like yeah raj and NE are useless but they don't actively cripple your empire.
Nuclear Espionage 11
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21
Cryptography 23
Containment 20
International Space Agency 21 (20 + 1) Not really the strongest and quite late game but when you are doing a SV and have 3-4 CSes it can make a meaningful difference.
Collective Activism 17
 
Charismatic Leader 23
Diplomatic League 19
Merchant Confederation 23
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Police State 5-3=2 - Amenities aren't easy to keep, and sacrificing them to get some protection against spies is too high prize.
Nuclear Espionage 11
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 21+1=22 - Open borders can help in military conquests, +4 point is huge bonus to earn envoys.
Cryptography 23
Containment 20
International Space Agency 21
Collective Activism 17
 
Charismatic Leader (23+1)=24 In the beginning, I prefer to use this policy
Diplomatic League 19
Merchant Confederation 23
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Police State (2-3)=0 I never use this policy...
Nuclear Espionage 11
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 22
Cryptography 23
Containment 20
International Space Agency 21
Collective Activism 17
 
Today's changes:
Charismatic Leader 24
Diplomatic League 19
Merchant Confederation 23
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
---Police State 0 ---
Nuclear Espionage 11
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 22
Cryptography 23
Containment 21 - +1 because sometimes I won't research totalitarianism just for gunboat diplomacy and this can help
International Space Agency 21
Collective Activism 14 - -3 If I can have it I don't need more culture.
 
Charismatic Leader 24
Diplomatic League 19
Merchant Confederation 24 (23+1) this can really get you quite an amount of gold
Machiavellianism 21
Raj 8
Nuclear Espionage 8 (11-3) I rarely steal tech boosts, and it is even rarer that I get away with it
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 22
Cryptography 23
Containment 21
International Space Agency 21
Collective Activism 14
 
Charismatic Leader 24
Diplomatic League 19
Merchant Confederation 24
Machiavellianism 21 + 1 = 22 I've won a few games at high levels with this perk. It has allowed me to go from two technology era's behind to right in-line with the current top-nation. 25% from here and 25% from the promotion you can get 4 turns per spy operation. This is insanely good.
Raj 8
Nuclear Espionage 8
Arsenal of Democracy 20
Gunboat Diplomacy 22
Cryptography 23
Containment 21
International Space Agency 21
Collective Activism 14 - 3 = 11 By the time you need this one... it's too late. You need tourism at this point, not culture.

Some of these are very obvious that they are good. I think the green cards are the most balanced of all the cards right now. That said... there are a few that just don't work.
 
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