Diplomatic Relations

[Tubby Rower]

I'll wait til you send yours before I send it via gmail

 

[Daghdha]

Well done Whomp, send it.

 

[Whomp]

Final copy. Please forward by email.

Foreign Minister Feaurius III,

To be blunt, we don't perceive our relationship as a high priority in the eyes of MIA and find it quite offensive, in fact, that we have not had the opportunity to deal with a decision maker directly. We were and still are, extremely disappointed in the knowledge level of your envoy - Kentharu. Emp. Napoleon even said to us he is teaching Kentharu the ropes and though Emp. Napoleon is a communicator he doesn't get into "game mechanics". Both are nice young men but I am personally outraged by both your insulting comments and your government forcing me to deal with your lackeys in the first place. You and your bureaucrats have not given our people a high degree of confidence with your treatment and heavy handed tone when you or your president have not even attempted to speak with us on IM.

If you wish to discuss hard numbers then you should be prepared to bring someone with knowledge of the game to the table. Dealings must be done with people of authority. If said player cannot make an executive decision, he should stay home.
It is far better when both sides agree on a certain deal before showing (voting etc) it to their teams. Then actions can be taken to the team for a vote.

When you have decided you are willing to talk business, feel free to appoint a capable member as ambassador.

This of course, us being Honourable, does not change any of our current deals.

Here is what we are willing to offer at this point.

Spoiler :

-MIA gives wheel upon completion and KISS gives pottery now.

- MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual borders, during the peace.

- MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.

-MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favored Nation status". Most Favored Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monopoly beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

- KISS will get writing while MIA gets Masonry and Myst. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.

- Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favored Nation" status.

- MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of republic.

Yours in bond,
Major Idiot Whomp

 

[Tubby Rower]

done567890

 

[Daghdha]

I agree now 100% with our statement. What I would like someone more into pbem game mechanics explain to me is the consecvences of this:

- MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.

If the poor sods say No, what will happen? If we make a halt in their waters we can (1) be asked to leave OR (2) be told told to pi55 off or declare. Is this random or does it work by logic? They can't just declare through a PM but it has to be "in-game" so I guess we should be clear about this.

 

[Tubby Rower]

In my opinion back-stabbing is OK in this game... ie no ingame declaration, just walk up and attack.

But with that said. We had better have an OK from another civ, because as we have said before 2 vs 1 always will win.

 

[Whomp]

I agree now 100% with our statement. What I would like someone more into pbem game mechanics explain to me is the consecvences of this:

If the poor sods say No, what will happen? If we make a halt in their waters we can (1) be asked to leave OR (2) be told told to pi55 off or declare. Is this random or does it work by logic? They can't just declare through a PM but it has to be "in-game" so I guess we should be clear about this.

There are none of the "AI" type feature in a PBEM so I think the point is keep the boats moving. If it lingers in the same area there's a fear units would be dropped off from those boats. Declarations of war will be clear when our SOD comes knockin'.

 

[Daghdha]

Declarations of war will be clear when our SOD comes knockin'.

We can send Peapants back down to say "Peek-a-boo" before we hit

 

[gmaharriet]

The last draft is good and seems to cover everything.

I also like the letter about bringing a knowledgable decision-maker to the table. It almost sounds like they don't have confidence in anyone on their team to be able to do that. I can understand their electing representatives, but if those reps are untrustworthy, they shouldn't have been elected. You shouldn't just fill "offices" with warm bodies. Our anarchy seems to be much more productive.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Our anarchy seems to be much more productive.

just sent a pm to fe3333au that said:

"think maybe we should have an informal discussion.

No restrictions, no decision making. My IM is akidiot@hotmail.com.

as u know we're anarchists with equal power.

I will not ask anything dishonorable.

feel free to memorialize any conversation. "

he seems the brightest of the lot. just fishing

 

[Tubby Rower]

A letter in our gmail box apparently address to Whomp

Spoiler :

Dear person behind the Whomp

I am writing this letter as a personal reaction to your last message ... I wish to absolutely and unequivocally state that I am writing as the person behind fe3333au ... and this should in NO WAY be connected with an MIA response ... which is currently on hold until this is cleared up ...

I feel you are confusing the Game Issues (or how we as a group of players have chosen to play this game) and the Team Issues (or the team MIA roleplaying element) since your missive makes reference to both ...

Here are my points and excuse me if they are stated bluntly as I am extremely offended and taken aback in the tone of your message.

Why am I offended ? ... I have come to the conclusion that it is because I have the honour of holding the Foreign Minister position and as such have had a large part in developing the diplomatic system ... a system that was only just being discussed and designed prior to our contact ...

1. We, (like KISS) as a team are made up of a diverse group of people living all over the planet, we come from diverse age groups, occupations, technical ability and computer resources (hey man we even got a guy who has big problems cos he's only got a Mac ... I'm passing a collection hat around for him at my local pub ).

Anyway we as a team have decided to play this game in our unique manner where all players are included and encouraged to participate ... In order to facilitate this, players are assigned in-game roles where the person is responsible for various aspects of the game ... after a period of time other people are encouraged to take on these roles ... or even new yet to be defined roles ... in this way everyone will eventually have a chance to experience all the exciting and fun elements of this unique gaming experience and later perhaps concentrate on the elements they are most comfortable with.

I know that your team works differently ... and is a strong collective of many old comrades from previous campaigns ... I imagine that old battles and scars are often discussed ... but our system has been developed and adopted to best suit our way of playing ... it is also one where members are able to suggest new and innovative ways of playing ... we openly encourage dynamic discussion and our rules and methods are adaptable ... but this is our prerogative not yours ... so you and every other team and player will have to come to terms with this ... and I respectfully say Deal with It

2. As I have stated in various correspondences now ... we have developed a diplomatic system which fits how we play the game ...

We can both agree that the anarchy of our first chat was totally unproductive ... therefore we have developed and tweaked a system that will work for us ... and eliminate the unproductive nature of previous chat ...

>Rival sends a proposal of things to discuss
>MIA as a whole team discuss this and come up with guidlines
>the Diplomatic Chat session is where both teams haggle a deal and discuss the proposal
>Diplomats have the ability to barter and agree on items on the agenda ... this is their brief
>Diplomats can be sounded out about new stuff but ...
>Rival must write new proposal in official letter
>MIA discuss

I am sorry if this is frustrating to you but this is how we as a team have decided to pursue diplomacy ... I totally understand your perception of having unbriefed diplomats ... but if things go widely from the agenda MIA have stated that the whole team MUST have the ability to input ... This is an exciting and important part of the game and MIA want that everyone should have the opportunity to take part in some manner.

If it helps, and it did me see it as trying to do business with an Asian culture ... It is OK to be frustrated with the Chinese because they do things differently ... all that is needed is to be aware that Yes is not agreement but merely an acknowledgement that you have stated something ... It is however unacceptable to be rude and/or condescending

3. Not all of us have or want MSM ... I personally have AIM (fe3333au) ... as Nikodeemus knows ... if you wanted to talk so bad why didn't you contact me on AIM? ... I bring this up because if you felt frustrated you could have contacted me personally ... and perhaps things could have been rationally discussed ...

So bottomline ... we as a group of players have decided on the best way we collectively want to play this game ... and as stated before, we all come from different backgrounds so the system we have developed and taken on suits the group of people designated MIA ... which is a simple wish to share the excitement and (just quietly addictiveness) to all the players of our team.

So in lieu of this I give you the opportunity to reword your letter ... or if it stands then MIA will see it an official correspondence.

I again hope that you do not take offence to this ... or if you do then let it be with me and not MIA.

Hoping this clears some things up ... I trust that it has just been a clash of game systems and not in teams within the game

Yours sincerely

The person behind the fe3333au avatar

Apparently he doesn't realize that we DON'T have to deal with it and can just ignore them in diplomacy and "role playing".

 

[Tubby Rower]

You guys aren't going to believe this but AK had an informal diplo meeting with feau3333 and got some things hammered out. Skippy and Igor were turned loose and stuff was accomplished. I think.

I'll let the Admiral tell you about his tales.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

no hammering fe. we got game. he's in tune with idiots. i was blunt, but tubs and whomp can give the verbatim stuff. i actually Pm'd the informal thingy before he replied. I harped on "we want to speak with decision makers"

BTW, can I trade Emp Napoleon, chivarly for Rep?

 

[Whomp]

I wasn't aware Fe sent his response to the gmail box so here's my exchange by pm. I also spoke to Kentharu and apologized to him. He apologized for not being prepared.

Spoiler :

Fe,

If you would like to discuss this or tell me what you find offensive please do and I will do the same for you on your communications to us.

I find you personally witty and refreshing in our other encounters and I do not want this to become personal.
In the meantime, if you'd prefer to keep the letter sent to you separate from our offer of peace that's fine too.

Now the reason that I am sending personal correspondence is that i sense your frustration ... in that the chat stuff is perceived to not being as effective as you would wish ...

But our bottom line is that we want all the team to be involved or at least have input in this sort of stuff ... it is an exciting new game concept after all ...

I don't want heaps of chatters (as I am positive you don't as well) ... and because of our inclusive approach to the game ... we have demarkation for ultimate decisions ... also the issue about technology ... many don't have the chat option ... I do but as mentioned AIM not the other one ...

I was rereading your PM and when I ignored the stuff written in frustration ... the 7 points for agreement are exactly what we want ... I have posted this also on the thread with the comment that it's a pity the other stuff was sent with it ...

So as Werner I reacted with the personal letter just to clarify where I and the MIA team are comming from ... however saying this as Feaurius III (which is another facet to the game I can't wait to fully explore especially when we all officially meet) ... anyway 'he' (now I'm starting to sound schizophrenic) would react quite differently ...

So if there has been any misinterpretation it would be a pity for the game to follow paths that are not necessarily that which neither Werner nor Bernie would want ... but which Whomp and fe3333au would find themselves ...

We as a team are also open to new ideas ... but there are ways and ways ...

I'm a bit rambly atm as it is way past Z-time ... but body clock is way out of sink atm anyway

So maybe if you want we can AIM ... I am fe3333au on the old AIM thingy

What do I want to achieve ... perhaps a rewrite ... you have made a point and we have taken note ... I bloody cringed when I read the last chat when Kentharu dropped out due to technical difficulties and an Emp.Nap. was left and totally unprepared ... the last one with Emp ... i don't know what was said as the record of the chat was not posted ...



But because we are concentrating on the fun factor and giving everyone a go ... What i really reacted to was the condescending nature that you addressed Ken and Emp ...

I would hate for a Bernieism to be misconstrued as one coming the leader of KISS ...

So let me know Matey.

I will personally apologize to these two young men if you feel that is what is necessary.

I think the experience they get from these discussions is fantastic and have said so in our threads. I am in charge of my companies summer intern program so I like to teach young people the right way to do things.

Where Ken, in particular, got off on the wrong foot is when I asked him to schedule a specific time (some of us have to work) but he couldn't accommodate us because he doesn't wake up till 10:30. Go to bed and we can talk about this tomorrow.

BTW please tell me if I'm being condescending.

 

[Daghdha]

Are you being condecending Whomp? The Blind Rat Idiot waves his magic wand and proudly presents:

Fact: A matter of fact can, per definition, only contain objective properties. That is, properties that are undisputable. Regarding a written PM the only fact about it is that it's written and that the words within it are written/typed the way they appear.
Interpretation: When we encounter facts we have to relate to them. Often this is done based on 2 principels. First, our interpretation must be understandable to us, otherwise we cannot do anything with the fact. It has to make "sense". Second, everything that makes sense to us in reference to our former experiences and beliefs are easily interpreted as facts.
Opinion: This is where it gets interesting and often . An opinion, like "you are condecending", is based on the above and it is painfully obvious that communication sometimes break down due to a mix-up between them. It is impossible to be condecending, but perfectly ok to be percived as it. MIA will interpret everything we say as "disrespectful" or "condecending" because it makes sense in light of their experience and, thus, will become a fact, i.e. we are condecending.

In addition to this I would like to point out that (I believe) any one of us, had we been signed up to MIA, would've acted about the same as they do, and the same goes the other way round.
This was prolly not an answer to your question but it was fun to post a picture of B.F. Skinner

 

[Whomp]

Daghie somehow I feel so much better now. Thanks!! What the heck it's Friday everybody!!

 

[Tubby Rower]

Came with the save

Official MIA Response to KISS

My esteemed friend Major Idiot Whomp

Greetings to you and all the equally rational folk at Team KISS ...

On behalf of the honourable and fair team MIA ... I would like to
extend the open hand of friendship ...

We have received your proposal The Seven Tiers to Friendship
and have had time to discuss it among the citizenry ...

However before we discuss these ... I would like to reveal contact
with another team ...

We were cautious regarding the rules governing the exact nature of
what is able to be disclosed and therefore we felt it prudent for MIA
to consult with the Administrators as the issue of what can be
divulged had to be clarified ...

For your information we include in the following spoiler, all the
rulings and replies to our intra-team queries regarding the contact
rules ... It indicates the meticulous scrutiny that the rules were
subjected to ... it also should in itself shout volumes about the
character and honour of team MIA ...

Spoiler Administrator Rulings and Expansion on 1.7 :

Telling Team KISS that you have met team Doughnuts is fine. Giving any
hint as to land features, a direction or anything else other than a
simple "We also want to tell you, Team KISS, that we have met Team
Doughnuts." isn't allowed nor necessary. Trading "directions to Team
Doughnuts" in exchange for gold, techs, or cities is strictly
prohibited.

That statement, of course led to more discussions and eventually
another call for clarification ...

Another Question about discussing a third party

We have another dilemma regarding what information is allowed to be
divulged to a rival when discussing the interactions with an unmet
team ...

We understand that the rules do not allow communication, map, etc to
be traded until that particular tech is appropriated ...

Q1 ... when exactly can communication (e-mail addresses) be traded is
it when embassies can be established ie. Writing ??

Anyway we understand that we can say the following:
>We have met team A
>They live <insert verbal rough directions>

But can we say ...

>That we have traded?
>Full disclosure of our dealings?
>What we feel and suspect about them?

I would say ... Yes ... but we would like clarification please ...

The clarification came ... from both ...

Yes, I would allow all of that. *I* wouldn't say a direction, just
saying "we met them by sea" or "by land" to be safe, but it's your
call. At most, use a direction - no distances or landmarks involved!

and

Specific contact trading is forbidden until printing press, as is
e-mailing them (except save sending).

Yes you can. Just remember, don't say that you met Team A on
coordinate square 188, 203. Say they're to the south.

Therefore team MIA would like to share the following -

> We have made contact with Team Doughnuts
> We traded Pottery for Bronze Works ...
> We don't know where they come from exactly, but they came by boat from the east ... therefore we suspect another land over the ocean blue ...
> They are a very proud people and with much chest slapping and boasting they let slip that they indeed possess the knowledge of Writing ...
> In lieu of our pending friendship we made absolutely no mention about team KISS nor the dealings between us ...
> In fact, at that meeting we were absolutely sure that within the Game Rules, we could state that MIA had met KISS if we so wished ... We chose not to !!!

I would like to take this opportunity to further clarify our perceived
stalling on the issue of disclosing contact with another people ...

1. We had sighted but not officially met with Doughnuts prior to our
first meeting.
2. We required clarification on the Game Rules.
3. Then further clarification was required.
4. During our last Official discussions, our assigned
ambassador Kentharu was permitted to mention contact but due to
unfortunate technical difficulties he was cut off at the very moment
when he was about to answer that very question ... (see transcript)
5. The other representative Emp.Napoleon, who had been invited by
Kentharu to assess and advise on the improvement of his diplomatic
performance, was not as fully briefed ... you may recall this was a
somewhat impromptu meeting.

Therefore by the quirk of Meleet this knowledge of
new neighbours was not passed on to you ... until now ... although,
and it should now be absolutely plain to all ... the will for honest
openness was already in place ...


... Now to Business ...


The Seven Tiers to Friendship

1. MIA gives wheel upon completion and KISS gives pottery now.

Unfortunately due to issues and factors mentioned above, we have
managed to acquire, through fierce haggling the art of Pottery
from team Doughnuts in exchange for the knowledge of Bronze
Working


2. MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual
borders, during the peace.

We agree ...


3. MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each
other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace.

We agree ...


4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation
status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we
learn at the monopoly beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount
if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly
beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold
number crunching.

We agree ... BUT For ... in the understanding that Emperor
Discount Rate is 150 - that is, the teams will trade each other
techs for up to 50% more or less than their fair value.

4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond monopoly beaker cost
for trade, must be agreed to by the other party ... ... MIA feel
that this addition will make it possible for both teams to further
benefit from our respective negotiation and bartering skills.


5. KISS will get Writing while MIA gets Masonry and Mysticism. As
soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability
starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy.
Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party
before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free
tech.

We agree ...


6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic
are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured
Nation" status.

We agree ...


7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know
what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is
basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns
beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have
passed after the discovery of republic.

We agree ...

>>>>>>>>

We would also like to add a clause ... or dare we say step

The Eighth Step to Trust

8. On first contact with an unknown team, either KISS or MIA will
share, automatically when their game save is sent, this fact with
their continental neighbour in written form.

As you can see ... team MIA have responded to you in total openness
and honesty ... and expect nothing less in return ... in good faith we
have even divulged information beyond the parameters of the pending
agreement ...

We have proven ourselves ... and inspired by the words and antics of
our young urchins ... The round squishy bouncy throwy thing is in
your hand ...

We await your response ... and mayhap a gifted token of
some description

Peace to us all

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

 

[Whomp]

That was cool. We should tell them about the ivory methinks.
We need to figure a way that the three teams can get the sling now.
Is it also an opportunity to gang up on TNT too?

 

[Pentium]

Yes, cooperation with D'nut for the slingshot is a good think, if they are for it too.

Not sure about war with TNT, they might be heaviliy prepaired for it (judging from a certain person's posts). I think out-researching them will be a better way.

 

[Kickbooti]

Am I a sucker? I'm starting to like MIA again.

I find the tone and explanation believable; but remember, I'm new to this playing against real people, so I could be a dupe...

It seems that the agreement is pretty fair, and if nothing else a solid foundation for future cooperation, yet general enough that we aren't tying ourselves down too early or too tightly.

I think telling them about the ivory would be good (they'll find it anyway). We may want to consider telling them about the dyes...I'm not sure about that.