Bootsville can only use so many land tiles. Sure it can use the coast, but that only gives commerce. Yes, we can use forest once it hits size 12. Also, there's the option of adding workers to cities. It *DOES* work. It's more powerful than you think.
Director of Infrastructure
- Thread starter Chieftess
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gert-janl
Alive!!!
Before deciding to add workers to cities, please remember that there are lots of places where those workers can be even more usefull. For example to clear the jungle in Alluares 
.
I really think it is a waste of shields and time to add workers to cities, while you still desperately need them somewhere else.
So please consider sending back some workers to Alluares to clear the nasty jungle next turnchat, especially if, as tao pointed out, they are not needed at the moment. When 3 native workers are creating a forest, where there is already a mine in place, I suggest to first use them for serious business...
.I really think it is a waste of shields and time to add workers to cities, while you still desperately need them somewhere else.
So please consider sending back some workers to Alluares to clear the nasty jungle next turnchat, especially if, as tao pointed out, they are not needed at the moment. When 3 native workers are creating a forest, where there is already a mine in place, I suggest to first use them for serious business...
Instructions that I'd like Boots to follow, if possible.
1 - PLEASE wake up the workers planting a forest in Bootsville!
2 - Clear the jungle by Santa Lucia. Clear 2 of them that are next to the river, and 2 more elsewhere. (Please look at the guideline in the DoI thread).
3 - Plant 3 more forests by Ville du Buisson. 1 and 2 tiles SE, and the plains tile 2SE, 1NE. Also, have Ville du Buisson use all three floodplain tiles. Have anarchy continue to build workers into the city.
4 - In Montpellier, move the worked irragated tile to the mined grassland 2NE of the city. Build 2 more workers in it from Liebling. Ignore those irragated tiles. Thanks for wasting them. When the city grows, use the 2 empty mined tiles.
5. Mine the 2 desert tiles with roads 1E, and 1E, 1SE of Vo Mimbre.
1 - PLEASE wake up the workers planting a forest in Bootsville!
2 - Clear the jungle by Santa Lucia. Clear 2 of them that are next to the river, and 2 more elsewhere. (Please look at the guideline in the DoI thread).
3 - Plant 3 more forests by Ville du Buisson. 1 and 2 tiles SE, and the plains tile 2SE, 1NE. Also, have Ville du Buisson use all three floodplain tiles. Have anarchy continue to build workers into the city.
4 - In Montpellier, move the worked irragated tile to the mined grassland 2NE of the city. Build 2 more workers in it from Liebling. Ignore those irragated tiles. Thanks for wasting them. When the city grows, use the 2 empty mined tiles.
5. Mine the 2 desert tiles with roads 1E, and 1E, 1SE of Vo Mimbre.
Need i say that most of these instructions I would NEVER EVER give? Irrigation for growth is correct, not mined desert at Vo Mimbre, nor forest planting. And Liebling would be a prime city with little corruption. Building workers is here is IMHO sheer crazyness.
Vo Mimbre has 2 surpluss food. The only tiles left are 6 desert tiles. DR is using the other tiles. Yes, it could get to size 12 with irragate, but I want production out of them right now. We can irragate when rails come.
Ville du Buisson only needs 4 more tiles. It's gonna have a TON of surpluss food. That's why I'm saying forests. Again, I'm focusing on production. Size 12 with 8 surpluss food is wasteful. Foresting is a common middle ages strategy. (Read Cracker's Forest strategy guide). Building workers into cities is *NOT* sheer craziness. Look at the LKentdar AW61 succession game. We kept adding workers into cities with a worker factory. Result? We had 50% of the world population for much of the game, even with 7 other civs around. These were done with worker factories. We're making 200gpt right now! That's a LOT of income. Gold, though, isn't always going to win wars. Production wins wars.
Ville du Buisson only needs 4 more tiles. It's gonna have a TON of surpluss food. That's why I'm saying forests. Again, I'm focusing on production. Size 12 with 8 surpluss food is wasteful. Foresting is a common middle ages strategy. (Read Cracker's Forest strategy guide). Building workers into cities is *NOT* sheer craziness. Look at the LKentdar AW61 succession game. We kept adding workers into cities with a worker factory. Result? We had 50% of the world population for much of the game, even with 7 other civs around. These were done with worker factories. We're making 200gpt right now! That's a LOT of income. Gold, though, isn't always going to win wars. Production wins wars.
Cracker's Forestation Strategies
Forestry
Worker Build Strategies in Action
LK61 Succession Game
The capital was on settlers only, then, after we had enough, workers only, which were built into the surround cities to quickly increase production.
Forestry
Worker Build Strategies in Action
LK61 Succession Game
The capital was on settlers only, then, after we had enough, workers only, which were built into the surround cities to quickly increase production.
You can't convince me.
Look e.g., at Vo Mimbre: It has 20 food. Thus it needs 4 more to reach size 12. The only way to do it is irrigate the desert. 4 tiles give 4 food, 4 shields, 8 commerce (even without GA). If you MINE 2 tiles, you get 0 food, 2 less pop, thus 2 tiles with 4 shields, 4 commerce, in total 4 less commerce, 2 less population. q.e.d.
And I was arguing that Liebling should GROW, NOT build workers. I was not arguing against joining workers to it.
And look e.g. at the craziness in Mr. Rogers Neigborhood. It builds granary even while it is not growing. And that, because it has no irrigation.
And NO, I would NOT join many workers to cities, because they will soon be needed to a) connect and improve conquered lands and b) to build railroads.
And of course, once we have rr, we need to mm and maybe rework city tiles, and once again after hospitals. But that is standard procedure.
And the forest operations means "planting and harvesting" to get the extra shields, NOT to plant forest to stiffle growth.
Look e.g., at Vo Mimbre: It has 20 food. Thus it needs 4 more to reach size 12. The only way to do it is irrigate the desert. 4 tiles give 4 food, 4 shields, 8 commerce (even without GA). If you MINE 2 tiles, you get 0 food, 2 less pop, thus 2 tiles with 4 shields, 4 commerce, in total 4 less commerce, 2 less population. q.e.d.
And I was arguing that Liebling should GROW, NOT build workers. I was not arguing against joining workers to it.
And look e.g. at the craziness in Mr. Rogers Neigborhood. It builds granary even while it is not growing. And that, because it has no irrigation.
And NO, I would NOT join many workers to cities, because they will soon be needed to a) connect and improve conquered lands and b) to build railroads.
And of course, once we have rr, we need to mm and maybe rework city tiles, and once again after hospitals. But that is standard procedure.
And the forest operations means "planting and harvesting" to get the extra shields, NOT to plant forest to stiffle growth.
Once our core cities are at size 12, we can continue to build workers in worker factories. If everything was going according to plan, we'd BE at size 12 in our core cities already! We'd have plenty of tiles worked. They don't work because some governors have plans of their own (not directed at you, specifically). Bootstoots isn't the best at worker management. We both told him, for example, that Bootsville didn't need another forest. He's having workers build a forest now. I've told him to clear out Santa Lucia, and other cities south of it. He hasn't done that yet.
Here, we're working with people who have different skill levels and different strategies. So, if one person decides to build all commerce improvements, instead of the plan, then things go heywire.
BTW, if you're concerned about your defenses (and the defense of the nation), PLEASE include more muskets in your build queues.
I'd rather defend with Muskets and Cavalry, not Bank Tellers and Fishermen.
Here, we're working with people who have different skill levels and different strategies. So, if one person decides to build all commerce improvements, instead of the plan, then things go heywire.
BTW, if you're concerned about your defenses (and the defense of the nation), PLEASE include more muskets in your build queues.
I'd rather defend with Muskets and Cavalry, not Bank Tellers and Fishermen.
If I may be so bold as to enter this discussion.
It seems to me that you are forgetful of the fundament of economics: Resources are scarce, and thus have to be used in the most efficient way to ensure that one gets the most possible output from every tiny bit of input.
In other words: Why use valuable worker turns on irrigating desert tiles when they can be used elsewhere, to net a greater result in terms of increased tile efficiency. What CT is referring to here is better use of worker turns. I assume you have done your calculations as well, but to me it is quite obvious that CT's idea is more efficient than yours.
Sincerely
Paalikles
It seems to me that you are forgetful of the fundament of economics: Resources are scarce, and thus have to be used in the most efficient way to ensure that one gets the most possible output from every tiny bit of input.
In other words: Why use valuable worker turns on irrigating desert tiles when they can be used elsewhere, to net a greater result in terms of increased tile efficiency. What CT is referring to here is better use of worker turns. I assume you have done your calculations as well, but to me it is quite obvious that CT's idea is more efficient than yours.
Sincerely
Paalikles
I gave "mathematical" proof for Vo Mimbre. Please can you give me any basis for what you call "obvious"?
Is it "obvious" to you, why Mr. Roger's builds granary but has no irrigation? I would be very interest to hear your arguments.
Is it "obvious" to you, why Liebling should build workers instead of grow asap to size 12. Please explain.
I don't understand your definition of "efficency".
I'd rather have cavalry because of the commerce (research) power than knights. And I'd rather have railroads faster. Etc. What we need is a good mix. And at least to me, it is "obvious"
that Audiac cities should go for commerce because of the terrain available. And IMHO it is a significant error that we are currently building way too many knights/cavalry. I would build some more libraries and especially universities in high commerce cities. Our army is more than able to win against both Russia and Babylon now.My deepest concern was the irrigation of desert.
I have not ordered, nor was I able if I wanted, construction of a granary in Mr. Roger's. FYI - I lack access to specific info on any of those cities in mention - mainly because I have little sparetime to get fully involved with the game at current, but also because finding updated screenshots of an area has proven somewhat difficult.
And now for my thoughts on efficiency:
if you produce a given amount of output, say x units of a good, and you minimize costs - e.g use an optimal amount of input (lowest required amount of input for the given output), that might be considered effective production.
Second, if you produce x units, and the demand for that good is lower, say x-1, then the amount produced that exceeds the demanded amount could be considered ineffective production - in all the time resources are being spent on something that is not demanded, when those same resources could have been applied to produce other goods.
Thirdly, in civ3 context, I reckon that the Kaldor-Hicks criteria for efficiency could be applied: If terrain is improved in one sector that is relatively high in productivity, for it to become more productive, with the result that some resources (here workers) have to be taken from elsewhere to do so, resulting in a slight loss for the sector those resources where withdrawn from, then the descission was effective if the net benefit of the nation as a whole is larger than the reduction for the specific sector.
You could also apply the Pareto-criteria: Assume you have 2 cities, city A and B. They have the same amount of worked tiles, and the same growth rate. You then improve 1 tile in city A, whilst B has no changes. Net result is increased efficiency - as city A is more productive, whilst city B has not suffered a loss.
Then there is the cost-benefit analysis:
If the same cities A and B faces the descission of whether to improve a tile in A or in B - the planners have to evaluate which improvement that gives the greatest benefit (benefit-cost=net benefit). It follows that the most efficient alternative is the one that gives the largest net benefit
This was today's lesson in microeconomics for civplayers.
I have not ordered, nor was I able if I wanted, construction of a granary in Mr. Roger's. FYI - I lack access to specific info on any of those cities in mention - mainly because I have little sparetime to get fully involved with the game at current, but also because finding updated screenshots of an area has proven somewhat difficult.
And now for my thoughts on efficiency:
if you produce a given amount of output, say x units of a good, and you minimize costs - e.g use an optimal amount of input (lowest required amount of input for the given output), that might be considered effective production.
Second, if you produce x units, and the demand for that good is lower, say x-1, then the amount produced that exceeds the demanded amount could be considered ineffective production - in all the time resources are being spent on something that is not demanded, when those same resources could have been applied to produce other goods.
Thirdly, in civ3 context, I reckon that the Kaldor-Hicks criteria for efficiency could be applied: If terrain is improved in one sector that is relatively high in productivity, for it to become more productive, with the result that some resources (here workers) have to be taken from elsewhere to do so, resulting in a slight loss for the sector those resources where withdrawn from, then the descission was effective if the net benefit of the nation as a whole is larger than the reduction for the specific sector.
You could also apply the Pareto-criteria: Assume you have 2 cities, city A and B. They have the same amount of worked tiles, and the same growth rate. You then improve 1 tile in city A, whilst B has no changes. Net result is increased efficiency - as city A is more productive, whilst city B has not suffered a loss.
Then there is the cost-benefit analysis:
If the same cities A and B faces the descission of whether to improve a tile in A or in B - the planners have to evaluate which improvement that gives the greatest benefit (benefit-cost=net benefit). It follows that the most efficient alternative is the one that gives the largest net benefit
This was today's lesson in microeconomics for civplayers.
I don't get the impression that your argument is based on the fact that Vo Mimbre is right next to the capital Deux Riviere and thus extremely low in corruption. And that 1 worker can do the irrigation and roading of the 4 tiles under discussion in 14 turns, whereas the same worker needs 18 turns for clearing and mining 1(!) jungle tile in a city with much higher corruption.
This whole argument IMHO is proof positive that looking at the save is essential. IMHO you came to wrong evaluations because you did NOT look at the save.
quot erat demonstrandum
This whole argument IMHO is proof positive that looking at the save is essential. IMHO you came to wrong evaluations because you did NOT look at the save.
quot erat demonstrandum
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Actually, your conclusion would be based on your belief that he did not have correct information.
The source of that information is irrelevant - had the Governor in question bothered to put some information in their Government thread, that information might have been sufficient.
But I digress.
-- Ravensfire
We are well on our way to building a complete railroad network. I just want to make 2 comments:
- when starting a new tile, it is enough to move only 1 (one) worker onto it. This worker can build a road next turn and only then send several workers.
- I at least road each and every tile (with 1 worker only) in order to be able to clear pollution faster
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