Disappointing Civ 4 performance

Skippy_Kangaroo · Jul 5, 2006

Brad,

I have posted tickets at Aspyr support but haven't been asked about which system I'm using yet. (Although I have been given some advice to fix audio problems on Quake 4 and asked whether I am sure I'm using a MacBook Pro! Sheesh!)

But, FYI, I have had complete lockups of my computer while playing (so no crash reporter logs or anything were generated). Not a kernel panic, not a crash, complete lockup requiring power-off to escape. I am running the 'fixed' 10.4.7. I initially downloaded the Intel delta update through Software Update but after reading about the OpenGL issues I downloaded the Combo updater and reinstalled. This has been happening with full screen mode - the lack of scrolling in windowed mode is a real pain - but will try windowed mode again to see if I get any lockups while doing that.

Other than that, the game plays smoothly with no obvious graphical issues on maximum settings (some minor tearing is obvious in the opening movie battle scenes when it is panning fast though).

FYI: I am using a 15" MacBook Pro, 2.0GHz, 2GB RAM, 256MB VRAM

Brad Oliver · Jul 5, 2006

jdevo said:
The big problem for me (besides the sound) is how slow and choppy the gameplay is with all the settings at their lowest and on a tiny globe... even though I have duo 1.8ghz 1gb ram geforce 5200... it seems that this particular video card just isn't enough to run it.

Yeah, the GeForce 5200 is - to be blunt - a pretty bad video card for gaming. I'd heard that nVidia's motto for the 5200 was "DX9 for $79". In other words, it's a low-end card that can claim some of the latest specs on paper, but can't really pull it off in practice.

Cougarcat · Jul 5, 2006

Brad,

some people have been reporting that running the game in a window yields a significant increase in performance. Do you have any idea why this might be the case? Just curious.

Brad Oliver · Jul 5, 2006

Cougarcat said:
some people have been reporting that running the game in a window yields a significant increase in performance. Do you have any idea why this might be the case? Just curious.

I've only read that it prevents the kernel panics. I haven't seen posts about windowed mode being faster. That would shock me if true; I can't begin to imagine why that would be faster.

Zaimejs · Jul 5, 2006

I think it "feels" faster... and it might be a resolution thing. I ran the game in a window and ran it full screen. I'm not sure what people mean by "faster"... I didn't notice any significant increase, and both processors were pegged either way.

I've played up to the 1800's on one game, and other than slow movements and a bit of graphic lag, the game runs okay.

I just wish it had sounds.

Beamup · Jul 5, 2006

Brad Oliver said:
Third, I've heard that under 10.4.7, some people are seeing kernel panics on Intel Macs with the ATI cards (the iMacs, mainly). We didn't have time to QA Civ4 against 10.4.7 but this is a real issue. For one, the initial 10.4.7 release (the first day) shipped with busted OpenGL drivers, and this was subsequently corrected in a later 10.4.7 re-release. We don't have any reliable feedback from end users on if the problems with 10.4.7 are happening in the "broken" 10.4.7 release or the "fixed" release, so our support guys are trying to nail this one down. We haven't been able to reproduce any of the kernel panics here in the QA lab yet.

I was able to come up with a series of steps that would 100% guarantee a kernel panic on my system: Intel iMac 2.0 GHz, 1 GB RAM, 256 MB Radeon x1600 video card, running 10.4.7 (and Software Update says there are no updates available, so I think the "fixed" release - System Profiler says 10.4.7 8J2135).

- Run in full screen mode at max (1680x1050) resolution.
- Turn the graphics level to High, set AA multisamples to 4.
- Start a new game as a civ without Hunting, and research it.
- Build a Scout.
- Attempt to move said Scout.

For me, this was a guaranteed, completely reproducible, kernel panic. I've put a sample crash report in the spoiler block.

Hope this might be useful...

Spoiler :

Brad Oliver · Jul 5, 2006

Beamup said:
Hope this might be useful...

Oh yes, thank you VERY much!

I'm really, really curious to see if people running 10.4.6 on Intel are seeing these panics on the ATI cards (i.e. the iMacs). I'd be willing to bet we were shanghaied by 10.4.7 on this one, since I know I ran it a lot on my iMac under 10.4.5 and 10.4.6 with no problems, and I did build scouts. ;-)

Edit: I've let the ATI guys know about this, and will report back here the exact moment we have some news on this. Please bear with us - hopefully we'll be able to work around this once we know what's going wrong.

Wannabuyaduck · Jul 5, 2006

Intel iMac 2.0 GHz, 1 GB RAM, 256 MB Radeon x1600 video card, runnin

Beamup said:
I was able to come up with a series of steps that would 100% guarantee a kernel panic on my system: g 10.4.7 (and Software Update says there are no updates available, so I think the "fixed" release - System Profiler says 10.4.7 8J2135).

Hey Beamup,

Just a heads up. It looks like you don't have the fixed release. If it is fixed, your system profiler should read 8J2135a. For some reason, it appears that Software Update doesn't register the "fixed" release as an update. You have to physically go to apple.com and download it.

I should be getting my Civ IV copy in the mail tomorrow. Like I said, I have the same system as Beamup, except I have 2 GB of RAM. Once I get it installed I'll report back on how it is working.

Brad Oliver · Jul 5, 2006

Wannabuyaduck said:
Just a heads up. It looks like you don't have the fixed release. If it is fixed, your system profiler should read 8J2135a. For some reason, it appears that Software Update doesn't register the "fixed" release as an update. You have to physically go to apple.com and download it.

Interesting. I managed to get the borked version on my Intel iMac as well.

FWIW, the correct version is here:

http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/macosxupdate1047intel.html

Also, looks like it only applies to Intel Macs. PPC Macs didn't have a re-release of 10.4.7.

If those of you with kernel panics can confirm one way or the other which version of 10.4.7 you are using, that would be great.

Beamup · Jul 5, 2006

Wannabuyaduck said:
Just a heads up. It looks like you don't have the fixed release. If it is fixed, your system profiler should read 8J2135a. For some reason, it appears that Software Update doesn't register the "fixed" release as an update. You have to physically go to apple.com and download it.

Thanks for the note - kind of ridiculous on Apple's part, really.

I have now installed 8J2135a. And, now that I have, the procedure outlined above no longer results in a kernel panic. I haven't tested in enough detail to see whether it solved them all, or just that one particular case, but it looks promising. More extensive testing to come tomorrow.

Brad Oliver · Jul 5, 2006

Beamup said:
I have now installed 8J2135a. And, now that I have, the procedure outlined above no longer results in a kernel panic. I haven't tested in enough detail to see whether it solved them all, or just that one particular case, but it looks promising. More extensive testing to come tomorrow.

If it turns out that the bulk of these Intel problems with Civ4 are caused by the original 10.4.7, I'll be both happy and angry at the same time.

Skippy_Kangaroo · Jul 6, 2006

As I understand the situation only the Delta installer of 10.4.7 had problems because of the OpenGL omission. (This includes the Delta light version that many people would seen through Software Update if they were already fully patched.) Those who used the Combo updater were not affected.

My freezes/panics have not been linked to anything obvious or repeatable and I have been able to continue the game to completion after loading the most recent autosave. For example, one time it froze in the middle of flashing <Press RETURN to end turn> so it is unlikely that I was doing anything specific to trigger it. (Using 10.4.7 Combo updater and, presumably, the unborked 10.4.7 - don't know what the System Profiler will tell me once I get home.)

Brad Oliver · Jul 6, 2006

Skippy_Kangaroo said:
As I understand the situation only the Delta installer of 10.4.7 had problems because of the OpenGL omission. (This includes the Delta light version that many people would seen through Software Update if they were already fully patched.) Those who used the Combo updater were not affected.

If that is true, then that makes it extremely difficult for our support guys to deal with the problem, as a good 10.4.7 could have the same build # as a bad one.

If you feel up to it, could you install the "fixed" build of 10.4.7 and see if that actually makes a difference for you? I'd sleep easier knowing one way or the other.

Skippy_Kangaroo · Jul 6, 2006

Brad Oliver said:
If you feel up to it, could you install the "fixed" build of 10.4.7 and see if that actually makes a difference for you? I'd sleep easier knowing one way or the other.

Sure - but it'll probably be the weekend before I can give any further feedback.

But in the meantime I'll poke around on the Apple discussion boards to find out if there is a better way to identify the problem (like looking at the version of the OpenGL files installed rather than the system build number).

Gatekeeper · Jul 6, 2006

Hmm. My new Intel iMac 2GHZ, 2G RAM, 256MB VRAM (i.e. the latest model) will be arriving within the next week or so. When I go to update the OS, because I'm sure it won't ship with 10.4.7, will it give me the corrupted version, or will have Apple fixed it so it downloads the unbroken version?

Gatekeeper

Skippy_Kangaroo · Jul 6, 2006

Gatekeeper said:
Hmm. My new Intel iMac 2GHZ, 2G RAM, 256MB VRAM (i.e. the latest model) will be arriving within the next week or so. When I go to update the OS, because I'm sure it won't ship with 10.4.7, will it give me the corrupted version, or will have Apple fixed it so it downloads the unbroken version?

Gatekeeper

You'll get the unborked version.

Brad Oliver · Jul 6, 2006

Skippy_Kangaroo said:
But in the meantime I'll poke around on the Apple discussion boards to find out if there is a better way to identify the problem (like looking at the version of the OpenGL files installed rather than the system build number).

Yeah, wish I'd saved off my iMac profile before updating again.

My 10.4.7 "a" build reports the OpenGL framework as version 1.4.10.5.0 (click on OpenGL in the Frameworks section of the profiler to get the longer Get Info version string), dated 7/5/06 10:12 pm. If yours is earlier or has a different version, I'd certainly start thinking about opening a bottle of champagne.

M.U.L.E. Master · Jul 6, 2006

I've been playing non-stop for three days on a 1.83GH Intel iMac with 1 meg of RAM, and on a 2.0GH Intel MacBook with 2 Megs of RAM, both purchased new about six weeks ago, with updated OS's.

First, thanks Brad for enlightening us about the story-behind-the-troubles. Second -- and I know I'll be in the minority here -- thanks for releasing the game early, even though it obviously isn't done. I've had more fun playing it than I would have had continuing to wait for it, which was getting excruciating.

My problems are these. First, the sound is messed up, which is already well-documented by others, but is not limited to an absence of battle sounds. Second, the battle animations are seriously impaired -- sometimes the opponents simply stare at each other until one disappears. Third, the panning is choppy, which is well-documented by others. Fourth, the animations between moves are seriously impaired -- for example, instead of walking between squares, my units occasionally slide, like chess pieces. Finally, I have experienced something like a memory leak, where the ice bergs and units turn into black silhouettes, requiring a save-and-restart. This occurs on both the iMac and MacBook, but is worst on the MacBook in HotSeat mode.

If this stuff gets fixed in a patch, then I'm fine. But if the battle and travel animations are gone in the Mac version, that will be really disappointing, and one of the truly sublime aspects of Civ4 will have been lost.
-- M.U.L.E. Master

Brad Oliver · Jul 6, 2006

M.U.L.E. Master said:
I've been playing non-stop for three days on a 1.83GH Intel iMac with 1 meg of RAM, and on a 2.0GH Intel MacBook with 2 Megs of RAM, both purchased new about six weeks ago, with updated OS's.

The MacBook is not supported - the graphics card is below what Civ4 really needs - so I'm mainly interested in what you're seeing on the Intel iMac. From a performance standpoint, you really shouldn't be having any sluggishness on that iMac, presuming you haven't jacked up all the settings to their maximum first. Are all these issues happening on the iMac? I'm seeing unit animations here on mine, and it's the 1.83 GHz model.

Skippy_Kangaroo · Jul 6, 2006

Brad Oliver said:
Yeah, wish I'd saved off my iMac profile before updating again.

My 10.4.7 "a" build reports the OpenGL framework as version 1.4.10.5.0 (click on OpenGL in the Frameworks section of the profiler to get the longer Get Info version string), dated 7/5/06 10:12 pm. If yours is earlier or has a different version, I'd certainly start thinking about opening a bottle of champagne.

My version is 1.4.10.5.0 although the last modified date is earlier (1/7/06 8:29AM - Australian date convention

) - but I doubt that it is really different because I think that's just when I installed it because many of my other frameworks and applications also have that time. (No 'a' in by system build info.)

Now to find out what the version in the borked install is.

Disappointing Civ 4 performance

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