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Discussion: Strategic resource unit requirements are utterly inconsistent, ridiculous and unbalanced

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Krajzen, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. AriochIV

    AriochIV Analyst

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    Since bronze isn't a resource in the game, I'm not sure that's relevant. But if you're referring to iron, I think the Iron resource in game is more representative of heavy armor than it is the blade itself (Spearmen having no resource requirement).
     
  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Thanx for the correction - since I've been playing around with alternative resources and requirements I tend to lose track of the actual current game processes.
    The game 'metal' requirements are pretty arbitrary. Bronze was, in fact, a fairly expensive and limited metal (in other words, a classic 'limiting resource') because of the alloy requirements (needed sources of both copper and tin or some kind of arsenical alloys) while iron was relatively plentiful (at least in the quantities required for ancient/classical weaponry). But 'bronze' was not especially associated with spearmen: the earliest bronze-particular weapons in fact were short swords and battle axes and the famous Hoplite used an iron-tipped heavy thrusting spear. Bronze armor wasn't even associated with spearmen - the Spartans notoriously never wore it at all, used felt/leather caps and relied on the heavy wood Hoplon shield for protection.

    Still later, I don't know of anybody in Europe from Classical to Renaissance Eras who couldn't produce armored men because of a lack of Iron. The limiting factor were big horses for mounted armored knights, or the expense of paying men full-time to train on their weapons (in other words, having enough wealth to be able to afford a Knightly or Man-At-Arms Class of 'non-producers').

    Now, when you start talking about Industrial Quantities is when serious shortages and limitations appear. Italian Rome had no trouble obtaining enough iron to fully equip and armor up to 50 legions, but 'modern' Italy could barely produce enough lightly-armored tanks for 3 smalll armored divisions, because every 10 tanks required more iron/steel than a legion of 5000 armored men!

    Ideally, and it's what I've been wrestling with mentally for some time, Resources need to be divided into Normal and Industrial Quantities, the latter with special requirements to move or trade (railroads, modern trucks, ships only) while the former would include most of the 'Amenity' Resources - 100 pounds of Diamonds is more than enough to be worth Trading, and you can carry that with one or two fat mules.
    This type of system would also make the Industrial Era a real 'Industrial Revolution' as your Resource Requirements would change dramatically in both type and quantity: the amount of iron required for a complete Tercio (roughly, 50 tons) would be about enough for 250 meters of light capacity single track railroad or about 2% of an ironclad - in other words, no longer enough for much of anything.
     
  3. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    Horses - If they don't want to make them all flat consumption requirements, then make the horse a maintenance requirement for all later cavalry units. Example: knights cost 20 Iron; Cuirassiers 20 niter, and each has a maintenance of 1 horse. But yes, all horse units should require horses in some form. Heavy cavalry should require 2 strategic resources to balance how OP they are.

    Iron - Bombards should require this, as well as Ironclads. Ironclads could consume 20 iron and be fueled by 1 coal. It makes SO much sense. I've seen a suggestion for Tanks to also require iron to represent steel - I'd be on board with that just to keep balancing the heavy cav line. Heavy cav line gets Horses + another strategic resource later in the game, and one extra resource for fuel, cost, whatever.

    niter - extend niter to infantry rather than make it require oil if infantry MUST have a strategic resource requirement. I'd rather they nix that so that requirement entirely so that even resource poor nations can have some offensive power by the modern era so they can attempt to acquire the more valuable resources.

    Coal - On the topic of battleships, early battleships were coal powered, so I see where they are coming from here. Coal's military uses were more limited, I'm fine with Coal how it is.

    Oil - this SHOULD be as required as it is since modern militaries and society live off of it, but they need to scale off this one a bit. Take this requirement away from infantry/artillery. It's ridiculous. Let resource poor nations have some sort of offensive power. You don't NEED oil realistically to have these. Rifles were mass produced without oil, same with cannons.

    Aluminum - Make this a base lump sum cost for most advanced units, have them fueled by oil.

    uranium - is fine the way it is.

    I need to examine the unit trees and requirements a bit more and then I would love to put together/assist with a master proposal for a strategic resource rework. I like the new system, but the inconsistencies are glaring.
     
  4. Forster

    Forster Chieftain

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    I don't understand why archers having range 2 ok while machine guns aren't. Last time I checked, bullets travelled a heck of a lot further than arrows. Machine guns should have been range 2 from the start. If you want a ranged unit at 1, change the archers that would make far more sense. I think they both should be range 2.
     
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  5. Forster

    Forster Chieftain

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    Actually, modern era infantry should require iron (steel) also. Since WWI, infantry weapons have been made from steel. The requirement is basic to all of the armed services. Everything is made from steel or aluminum.
     
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Gameplay. It’s good that ranged units “top out” with Machine Guns. Infantry should be hard to get but not too hard, so only require oil.

    I’m just not that worried about realism.
     
  7. Forster

    Forster Chieftain

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    I'm not that worried about realism either, it is a game. But, it doesn't seem right that arrows go farther than bullets.
     

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