Discussion: Victory Type

[Cyc]

I'll vote for a Cultural Victory! Either by total Cultural Victory (100k Culture Points) or by our Capital achieving 20K in Culture Points (if not the Capital then the second city).

On second thought I believe it would have to be the Capital City.

Go Culture!

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

a 20k culture would be nice. Perhaps the 2nd city, for use of the palace prebuild.

 

[Cyc]

Good thinking Stuck, but it's hard to build up thay 20K without the Palace adding points the whole game.

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by Rik Meleet
Histograph is the most difficult indeed, but also the most boring. When we've reached the situation that no other civ can win, no matter what; the next turns are boring.
<snip>
I'll leave then. I want fun, not boredom.

Yeah, that's the reaction I'm worried about. There is a reason that GOTM adopted a scoring system that balanced milked games with fast victories, and that was to spice it up for the vast majority who can't stand to sit through 100's of turns of micro-management and not much action otherwise.

Those who want to milk it out to the end could always run a SG starting sometime before we reach critical mass on the DG win. Then they'd have the best of both worlds...

 

[DaveShack]

Cyc & Stuck, I'd be with you on a 20K culture goal. The only reason I didn't start off suggesting this is that one of the prior DGs was a culture victory. Diplo was the major victory type we haven't had, lumping conquest and domination together as two flavors of the same general victory type.

Hmm, now where was that culture calculator?

 

[Cyc]

Yeah, I'm one of those guys that likes to plug along until I get the Histograph Victory because I'm actually always going for the Culture Victory. I will even set my Offensive strategies against the tribe that has the best Culture, in order to knock them out. Problem is, another one steps right in its place.

This makes a Cultural Victory one of the most difficult to achieve. Because you don't want to win by Conquest/Domination while seeking Cultural superiority, you can't just hack and slash your way to Victory. You can't let other nations launch or build the UN. The 20K Victory? I haven't done it yet. I think that would be a great goal.

 

[Furiey]

When I get a Histograph win it's usually because I'm too slow in reaching the other victory conditions - not quite enough culture, too slow research rate (for everyone) for spaceship, not quite enough territory for domination and no one likes anyone else enough for Diplo. edit: meant to add "hence it would be my least favorite" but hit submit by mistake. Also edited as it sounded like I usually get a histograph win which is not what I meant either.

I would like to go for 20k Culture - as like several others I haven't done that!

 

[Karsten Strauss]

Yes to 20K Culture or Conquest. No to the histograph. Histograph victory seems to me like a failure to win any other way, where you ran out of time. I play to win, not to stall victory for anyone including self. Do we just want victory or a great civilization to be proud of because of its accomplishments, not lack there of? 20K culture seems to me like it would encompass several of the elements that people are looking for in the histograph as this victory would require stalling on a diplomatic or spaceship victory. Plus, 20k culture would handicap us early in the territorial landgrab game as we would need to focus more on cultural builds as well as territory expansion. It could be a substantial challenge.

 

[Bootstoots]

Well, 20k culture would be a good challenge, and I have never managed to do it before. As for Conquest, that would also make for an interesting game. I don't particularly want to have a game where we sit building most of the time, instead, I think we should conquer our entire continent if possible, and then try to win by 20k Culture. I don't want 20k Culture turning into another building game.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

It IS possible to win at 20k culture and not grab that many early game... It was done in an Epic... *Digs for URL* Here we are. Hmm.. Done by Sirian, so it might be a hard feat to match. http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/epic35.html Just keep your eye on Delhi. In my plan, we would have the option of the palace prebuild. And @boots- that game was pretty bloody. Sirian got only two ancient wonders (GL, Col) 2 middle age wonders (Sistine, Newtons), ONLY ToE, and every wonder after that, but he had the Internet since it was PtW. We can match that. We wont have as quick a temple, but if need be, we can start with the Pyramids in a secondary city which would become our culture city. What about it? I've lobbied through alot of causes in this game (Being French, Parisians/Les Civerables (failed, yea)), so lets try a 20k game in a city other then the capitol. For another (very bloddy) other city 20k culture game, http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epic27/page1.html
An AW game where T-Hawk was able to win by conquest and culture on the same turn.

Hope these help the cause!
SaaM

 

[Sharkey]

Stuck, How about Conquest AND Cultural, like on that second link. "An AW game where T-Hawk was able to win by conquest and culture on the same turn."

 

[Bootstoots]

Looks good to me; I'm fairly convinced that we should go for 20k culture.

 

[Fier Canadien]

Go for 20k Culture! Lots of wonders, peaceful game and nice trading will be our way!

 

[Bootstoots]

I'd be all for 20k culture, with lots of wonders, a warlike game (though not warlike enough to accidentally win by conquest/domination), and nice trading with those who support us and don't present a convienient back to stab.

 

[D'yer Mak'er]

how about just leaving it open? personally, i kinda think it spoils some of the fun to decide what victory to go for that early in the game.

 

[amirsan]

Originally posted by D'yer Mak'er
how about just leaving it open? personally, i kinda think it spoils some of the fun to decide what victory to go for that early in the game.

clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap...

I think this was the BEST suggestion made in this whole thread. And I think it makes the most sense. Why spoil the fun? You know culture victory let alone 20k does nothing of importance to the Military Department, why neglect it? There is no need to set what we are going to do. I thought this was going to be realistic, why dont we play along with the game just like a real democracy would. If we find a good oppertunity to go conquest, so we do it. 100k win, then we go for it.

But what messes with my head the most is that we spended about three polls on what civ, chose FRANCE over EGYPT (the best cultural civ) and now we want a full 20k win. This doesn't make sense.

Anyways, if we realy want culture victory, make it 100k becuase it involves building, technology, money, war and culture. This is a good all around victory.

 

[GenMarshall]

I also agree that we should not do a 20K Victory since its much to easy. We should try to do a 100k victory or something more challenging. France is not a culture civ its it does not have religion in its traits.

20K would leave nothing for the military to do.

 

[DaveShack]

I'd like to point out that winning via culture requires ensuring none of the other civs win via another method, so the military would definitely not be left out.

The point of asking this question was that if we want to aim for a culture win then culture improvements have to be built fairly early. If we go for diplomatic, then we'd better not get in a habit of breaking deals. If we're aiming for conquest then we should build a lot of units early.

I'd really prefer to see us attempt a multiple win strategy. There were several high-profile cases in recent GOTMs where the really good players got into a position to win via space if they allow production to complete, diplo if they say yes to the UN vote, or conquest / domination by capturing an AI city, all on the same turn!

This is way too analytical for casual play, but I think that using the style of trying to do all things well in the beginning would result in the most enjoyable game, particularily in a demogame, because all types of players get a chance to shine.

 

[ybbor]

it'd be hard to go for a multi victory win, for instance, do we declare war to get land, or stay out to keep a UN vote, do we build a temple in a war to get culture, or units to get land? while some players think this makes the game exciting and chalenging, i think it makes the game difficult and will result in much debate among citizens, no save ourselves a headache and decide a victory now, i have no problem with not determining a victory now, provided we don't just say aww lets go for all, but we should, at the very least decide peaceful (UN, Space race, culture), or aggresive (domination, conquest, i supose histograph) before we decide on a victory condition we should at least decide aggresive or peaceful, i'll start, i think aggresive would get players involve and provide for more exciting gameplay

 

[amirsan]

Dave, we are playing on MONARCH. How much military are we going to use on Monarch let alone a 20k. Now remember, I said 20k, 100k is fine for me. I'm all for it, becuase this does include military and other departments but I dont like the 20k idea. What are we going to do? Defend in wars, IF we are attacked. I dont see how we could use military realy in 20k, unless its defense...