Disturbing facts about the real life civilizations and leaders

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I humbly recognize that I'm not skilled in some American jargons and didn't knew that gitmo = Guantanamo :p . The only written reference to Guantanamo until that moment was brades one.

No shot intended. I should have said gitmo = Guantanamo.
I am really amazed at how good everyone's english skills are. :goodjob:
My Spanish is rather poor. If I had to participate in Spanish Forums I would be way worse off than most of you.
 
Wouldn't you? At the Time we were at war with JAPAN. It seems reasonable given the society and life style of the day that the Japanese and Germans (who you forgot to mention) we put into camps so the government could keep an eye on them. Now lets be Fair to Roosevelt. Were not talking Auschwitz here. They only lasted 3 years.

Its still wrong. It would be like putting all Arabic americans in a relocation camp after 9/ll. It was the wrong thing to do, and we shouldn't have done it. Ronald Regan, if I remember correctly, apologized for it though.:)
 
It seems this thread has got a little bogged down with judgement. The question of moral relativism which is what you guys are discussing is more complex than can be imagined. Is something wrong because it offends a natural order/law or is something only wrong relative to the culture/time etc. Massive debate in sociology and one that is usually polarised on similar lines to Right and Left wing.

Firstly let me tell you every single political structure known to man has something to be ashamed off every single one bar none. If I was to characterise the worst regime of the modern age it would be America. Nuclear Bomb, Guantanamo, Shock and Awe campaigns etc etc. However on the other hand I am Australian our country supports America. Perhaps the question should really be can u truly maintain power and the benefit to your people (which is the true aim of society) without doing at times nasty things.

I fear the answer is no
 
It seems this thread has got a little bogged down with judgement. The question of moral relativism which is what you guys are discussing is more complex than can be imagined. Is something wrong because it offends a natural order/law or is something only wrong relative to the culture/time etc. Massive debate in sociology and one that is usually polarised on similar lines to Right and Left wing.

Firstly let me tell you every single political structure known to man has something to be ashamed off every single one bar none. If I was to characterise the worst regime of the modern age it would be America. Nuclear Bomb, Guantanamo, Shock and Awe campaigns etc etc. However on the other hand I am Australian our country supports America. Perhaps the question should really be can u truly maintain power and the benefit to your people (which is the true aim of society) without doing at times nasty things.

I fear the answer is no

America has had some pretty bad international policies. But we're far from the worst. For example, in Iran women don't have rights and stuff. There speech is censored by Islamic rules. Gay people are persecuted. I could go on, but I think the point has been made. You could even argue that we're the worst WESTERN country in the world. The worst? I don't think so.
 
Cultural Relativism is what omnimutant is talking about, and it is very very dangerous. If an action is judged to be right or wrong based on how it is accepted in that culture
Like it or not, that is what happens. Society makes the rules based on it's perception of right and wrong at the time. If later we find out that it probably was not a good Idea, then we learn from that, but you can't change the past and at the time it was considered the right thing to do.
 
And the points weren't criticisms of the leaders, IMO FDR and Lincoln were quite good leaders of the US.
Sure, in theory I think the US SHOULD have simply said, "goodbye, have fun" to the Confederates, but the South was an important part of the US, and Lincoln did was was best for his country. Though there was some excessive brutality, even for that time, during the war.

FDR deserves to be near the top of any list of the best presidents. Any decent president would have done the same things. Nukes would have been built sooner or later anyways, and would have been used. Carpet bombing was believed to be effective, and to a degree it was, just not what was expected pre-war, and he had little say in the matter (Europe was getting plastered by the RAF either way).

Ah. *tips hat* Apologies...

Anyway, I agree: every leader does things that some consider bad. There isn't a single leader with some flaw.
 
Wasnt Van Oranje kind of decent?
And what did Ghandi do that was so wrong?
 
Wasnt Van Oranje kind of decent?
And what did Ghandi do that was so wrong?


gandhi , flirting with nazi germany , .....

van oranje was not that decent , he had people hung from bridges , ....
 
Wasn't he the one who enslaved the Hebrews and forced them to work on the Pyramids and other construction projects?

I believe most of the pyramids were constructed long before the time of Ramesses II, weren't they?
 
In the third year of his reign Ramesses started the most ambitious building project after the pyramids, that were built 1500 years earlier.

quite a bit earlier according to wiki
 
William (well when I first opened my game I was slightly confused, initially thinking William III):
hmmm, he led a bloody uprising against his Spanish rulers. I am sure there must have been some nasty occurances during the war, and the war itself is reason for the OP to not use him.

Gandhi was a racist. At least early on, he did not like Africans. He campaigned to get Indians to fight and kill Zulus.

Just goes to show that nobody is all good.
 
Not really. We have something called Martial Law. In times of emergency our President has the right to assume full control of our government. In effect he becomes a dictator.
Even if the President tries to become a dictator, the rule of law still applies, as happened today:

Justices Rule Terror Suspects Can Appeal in Civilian Courts

June 13, 2008
Justices Rule Terror Suspects Can Appeal in Civilian Courts
By LINDA GREENHOUSE

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered its third consecutive rebuff to the Bush administration’s handling of the detainees at Guantánamo Bay, ruling 5 to 4 that the prisoners there have a constitutional right to go to federal court to challenge their continued detention.

The court declared unconstitutional a provision of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 that, at the administration’s behest, stripped the federal courts of jurisdiction to hear habeas corpus petitions from the detainees seeking to challenge their designation as enemy combatants.

Writing for the majority, Justice Anthony M. Kennedy said the truncated review procedure provided by a previous law, the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, “falls short of being a constitutionally adequate substitute” because it failed to offer “the fundamental procedural protections of habeas corpus.”

Justice Kennedy declared: “The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/washington/13scotus.html?hp
Go Kennedy!
 
i'd like to see the source of such statement. there were human sacrifices but modern historians think they happened in small numbers. the "thousands" version come from the spanish conquerors, that used this as an excuse to destroy those ancient civilizations saying they were barbs... it is a good question about civilization, who was more barbarian? those that made those crazy sacrifices cos their religion, or those that destroyed thousands of years of culture?

Modern historians generally agree that the Aztecs did, in fact, sacrifice thousands.

How many thousands is a bit contentious, but certainly still thousands. In the pre-Columbian Ramirez Codex, the Aztecs themselves (before they ever met a Spaniard) claim to have sacrificed 80400 in 4 days to consecrate the Templo Mayor when it was first raised. This is surely exaggeration, and most historians go a tenth of that figure or less because the rate exceeds that of modern capabilities in slaughterhouses and death camps and simply wasn't physically possible given the facilities at the Templo Mayor. According to Aztecs interviewed by Spanish missionaries after the Conquest the number was 4000 in four days, far more plausible.

You must be thinking of the Maya, or perhaps one of the other Mesoamerican groups (Mixtec, Zapotec, etc). These groups also practiced sacrifice but in far, far more limited numbers. The Aztecs were an exceptional group, who were not native to the area but had arrived from the north relatively recently.

Of course it all has to be taken in context. By and large, these were not civilians rounded up and forced under the priest's knife. Generally, these were prisoners gathered in the Flower Wars, which were sort of like pseudo-warfare with very low casualties. In European wars, these individuals would have been the wounded and maimed left on the battlefield, who were generally put under a knife by the winner there as well, just in a less ritualized fashion (hospitality towards prisoners was accorded only to nobility, until fairly recently). If I came afoul of some historical state, I would rather be quickly killed in a surgical manner by an Aztec priest, than undergo an Elizabethan execution: hanging til I nearly lose consciousness, then having my guts slowly torn out by a winch, living just long enough to watch them feed my innards to dogs or pigs.

For that matter, Europeans also practiced ritual human sacrifice to please their deity at the same time. What else could one call the execution of heretics and witches?
 
Besides his racism, Gandhi is a perfect example of why leaders with good intentions can bring even more misery and suffering than the ones who are out to line their pockets.

Gandhi's actions resulted in many, many thousands being killed in the Partition, and to this day the Kashmir dispute is one of the world's most dangerous conflict zones and the most likely flashpoint for a nuclear war.

Not to mention that in creating the independant India as a Hindu state, the Untouchable caste was consigned to its present-day fate; the Sikhs were left without a state, and in several cases attacked by the new state (most famously by Indira Gandhi). The Tamil conflict, with tens of thousands of deaths, also arises out of the hasty transfer of power that followed India's independance.

And it's not at all surprising. Gandhi's nonviolence was so radical that it lent itself to all sorts of situations like this. Thank God the British never listened to his advice:

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions...If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."
 
I am finding that I no longer want to play as a lot of the leaders and civilizations after finding out about the horrible atrocities and other bizarre things they did.

Perhaps they could add Mother Teressa of Albania in the game.:lol:
 
Christopher Hitchens . . . was called to testify in Mother Teresa's case [for beatification].

Hitchens, who specializes in the slaughter of sacred cows, wrote a book that took the 20th Century icon to task for perpetuating poverty with her militant opposition to family planning, and preaching that poverty was a blessing.

“I met her. My impression was that she was a woman of profound faith, at least in the sense that one can say of anyone, who is a completely narrow-focused single-minded fanatic, that they are a person of faith,” says Hitchens.

Did he meet her before or after he made up his mind about her?

“It was by talking to her that I discovered, and she assured me, that she wasn't working to alleviate poverty,” says Hitchens. “She was working to expand the number of Catholics. She said, ‘I'm not a social worker. I don't do it for this reason. I do it for Christ. I do it for the church.’"

And the church listened to Christopher Hitchens, but decided that his argument was irrelevant.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/09/60minutes/main577394.shtml


I think Sitting Bull is probably the most morally upstanding character represented in the game, but that's probably just because I don't know any dirt on him yet. Did he attack civilians? I bet he did. Was he racist against whites? Dunno, but its possible. He was Sioux ... and during that period, the Sioux were raiding the Ute and other native groups for slaves which they sold in Mexico. Was he ever involved? Did he endorse or refute the practice? Dunno.
 
Hi ,

:nono: wrong , people on the east coast where left alone , except for a few public high profile people and some union folks , ...

Have a nice day :)

Well, the great majority of Japanese-Americans lived on the west coast. If the U. S. government hadn't been racistic, they would also have interned every German-American on the east coast. Or left most people in both groups alone.
People don't need to have an embassy on a specific island in order to be up to no good there.
I was writing about casualties, not only dead or MIA. With those wounded, included those who became invalids for life, there were over 100 % casualties. The term casualties includes those wounded. Incidentally, 22 % dead or MIA is a staggering figure, in case you didn't realize it.

You have a nice day too. :)
 
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