KingArthur666
Warlord
This makes sense, I like it. Make it so.
Divine Prophets AI
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
This makes sense, I like it. Make it so.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@ThunderBird,
Are you in charge of the DP or is DH?
With the new Founding Religion techs the GP now needs to be removed from the "old/original" founding tech to the "New" founding tech. And where is this found in the Mod? XML, SDK, or Python?
JosEPh
Are you in charge of the DP or is DH?
With the new Founding Religion techs the GP now needs to be removed from the "old/original" founding tech to the "New" founding tech. And where is this found in the Mod? XML, SDK, or Python?
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
XML mostly. I check for the extra religions, I am not sure but the standard ones may have been done in the SDK.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah. I could update the firstfreeprophet tags on the techs but I wouldn't be able to push the fix to the svn for a bit. All it requires is turning the <bfirstfreeprophet> tag to 0 on the old techs and to 1 on the new ones. DH is handling it for the extra religions because he separated it out into modular form to make it easier for a merge update with AND a while back.
What I SHOULD do is update the whole mechanism further to automatically detect if its a religion granting tech that no one else has reached yet to give the prophet on. But I thought it might be more interesting to leave the door open for some religions to be founded by other GPs or to have some NOT give prophets, or to enable some balancing acts to allow for some of those religion qualifying techs not necessarily also be prophet gifting. But I admit, at the time, it was the easiest way for me to go about it with my limited coding knowledge. I could probably change it to not require the tag now.
What I SHOULD do is update the whole mechanism further to automatically detect if its a religion granting tech that no one else has reached yet to give the prophet on. But I thought it might be more interesting to leave the door open for some religions to be founded by other GPs or to have some NOT give prophets, or to enable some balancing acts to allow for some of those religion qualifying techs not necessarily also be prophet gifting. But I admit, at the time, it was the easiest way for me to go about it with my limited coding knowledge. I could probably change it to not require the tag now.
WimpyTheWarrior
Warlord
Just curious, with DH's fix in SVN 3173 (correct tech for GP) I noticed in the XML the free unit text was (RELIGION)_MISSIONARY, which got me thinking about the Missionary instead of the GP.
I sort of prefer the Missionary instead of the GP. I like the fact that discovering the religious tech first allows you to found the religion, but not build a specialist or start a GA or something else. I've played with the XML for a while there and created that effect, admittedly with a few dissapointing moments when the first Missionary failed to spread the religion! (WB to the rescue.) And I never got to MUSIC, which would require the WB to get the GA and GP.
What is the view of others; GPs or Missionaries? I see a few positions in a few posts in this thread; any consensus yet?
I sort of prefer the Missionary instead of the GP. I like the fact that discovering the religious tech first allows you to found the religion, but not build a specialist or start a GA or something else. I've played with the XML for a while there and created that effect, admittedly with a few dissapointing moments when the first Missionary failed to spread the religion! (WB to the rescue.) And I never got to MUSIC, which would require the WB to get the GA and GP.
What is the view of others; GPs or Missionaries? I see a few positions in a few posts in this thread; any consensus yet?
Missionaries are probably less exploitable. For my part, I've been researching Shamanism just to get a quick Golden Age. I think the second tier religious units in FFH had a 100% chance of religion spread, so I'm sure something could be worked out in that regard.
Missionary, a secondary Missionary unit with 100% success rate.
You (the team) could even use the Female Missionary instead of a Prophet and give them 100% success rate. I'd not think that would be OP in any game as it's not all that often you get one from normal Missionary Building.
Cheers
You (the team) could even use the Female Missionary instead of a Prophet and give them 100% success rate. I'd not think that would be OP in any game as it's not all that often you get one from normal Missionary Building.
Cheers
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
The reason the prophet is necessary is because:
a) that's how religions are actually founded in RL.
b) I love and wish to retain Choose Religions and Prophets allow for this where missionaries would not.
c) As noted, the 100% success rate for spreading for the prophet is built into the code where it would not be for missionaries, making it quite possible a religion may vanish forever in the failure of its first and only attempt to spread.
d) I like exploitability. But then, if anyone thinks that doing anything BUT founding a religion or at least building one of your religion's shrines, until all religions are founded (except Mormonism) is a better way to use a prophet, I disagree wholeheartedly. I personally believe it shows a lack of respect for the power a religion brings to allow an opponent to grab it rather than take it for yourself. Few benefits in civ could outweigh those of pretty much any of our religions. The culture only shrines are a bit weak, true, but I have some plans that will make them extremely desirable, perhaps moreso than gold.
Also, there are still a few ai fixes to come here to get most ai to play more like a person, founding the religion a bit faster.
And since we keep questioning the decision to make religions found by prophets here, I'll have to take a step back to this and develop out the next phase of the plan here lest I get too frustrated, then if you still want missionaries for this, I'll build you another option.
a) that's how religions are actually founded in RL.
b) I love and wish to retain Choose Religions and Prophets allow for this where missionaries would not.
c) As noted, the 100% success rate for spreading for the prophet is built into the code where it would not be for missionaries, making it quite possible a religion may vanish forever in the failure of its first and only attempt to spread.
d) I like exploitability. But then, if anyone thinks that doing anything BUT founding a religion or at least building one of your religion's shrines, until all religions are founded (except Mormonism) is a better way to use a prophet, I disagree wholeheartedly. I personally believe it shows a lack of respect for the power a religion brings to allow an opponent to grab it rather than take it for yourself. Few benefits in civ could outweigh those of pretty much any of our religions. The culture only shrines are a bit weak, true, but I have some plans that will make them extremely desirable, perhaps moreso than gold.
Also, there are still a few ai fixes to come here to get most ai to play more like a person, founding the religion a bit faster.
And since we keep questioning the decision to make religions found by prophets here, I'll have to take a step back to this and develop out the next phase of the plan here lest I get too frustrated, then if you still want missionaries for this, I'll build you another option.
b)I don't have any real preference, but I'm not sure it makes sense to keep Choose Religions when we have techs dedicated to the founding of a particular religion (also total tangent, but I keep forgetting to mention it, I think maybe the new religion techs should be additional prerequisites for the respective religion's buildings, so there's a reason to go back and pick them up or trade for them).
c)I think the suggestion was there would be a check each time someone gained the tech and the religion wasn't founded granting a missionary. Which would still suck if you're the first one there and the dude fails.
d)I'm a little intimidated by the "not quite like the other religions" mechanics of some of the really early religions, so the quick Golden Age, particularly given that Shamanism (the tech) appears right around a bunch of civic granting techs), is quite desirable.
c)I think the suggestion was there would be a check each time someone gained the tech and the religion wasn't founded granting a missionary. Which would still suck if you're the first one there and the dude fails.
d)I'm a little intimidated by the "not quite like the other religions" mechanics of some of the really early religions, so the quick Golden Age, particularly given that Shamanism (the tech) appears right around a bunch of civic granting techs), is quite desirable.
b) If female missionaries are given a 100% success rate they can do just that. The rate by which one gains female missionaries normally is low enough so that this would not upset the game balance anyway.
c) Don't think so but that would be a good idea. First to the tech could get a female missionary as well (see b)), for a 100% chance of plopping it too.
d) This, and bulbing through all religion techs, would be preferably avoided. Bulbing especially now that one can have all those religion techs just ready to be bulbed all at once.
Cheers
c) Don't think so but that would be a good idea. First to the tech could get a female missionary as well (see b)), for a 100% chance of plopping it too.
d) This, and bulbing through all religion techs, would be preferably avoided. Bulbing especially now that one can have all those religion techs just ready to be bulbed all at once.
Cheers
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
There could be a new way soonish. In Sevo's "Faces of God" mod you have Founders who can only build one of the sacred wonders and thus choose the path your religion will go down. Letting them found a religion may be an alternative as well.
Not all religions have female missionaries yet.
The Flamen Temple wonder gives missionaries 100% chance of spreading their religion. Something similar could be done if you want to go with missionaries.
Not all religions have female missionaries yet.
The Flamen Temple wonder gives missionaries 100% chance of spreading their religion. Something similar could be done if you want to go with missionaries.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Let me ask you guys who would rather use a missionary this:
If you had to birth your prophets without them spawning free on the religion techs (which was really a band-aid fix for the time being anyhow) would you feel any differently? This is the plan.
And as frustrated as I'm getting with the repeated suggestions of making a missionary (one who spreads the established word of an existing religion) replace the free prophets, which mind you, I do understand the gamebalance cause for the suggestion, I do plan to get working on that phase of the solution very soon. I'd also like to see some ideas to make other GPs more worthwhile put to use soon as well (to give some balance.)
Your idea there does sound interesting DH. Equally, I'd ask, would it be possible to make the 'Founders' the Prophets themselves? This could give Prophets a completely new and equally powerful application that would split a player's decision between the various options they possess even further, making how to use them an even more 'interesting' decision. (I guess I assume those religion branches would be as powerful a boon as a new religion entirely.)
I had an off thought today about Great Artists... what if they were used to 'found' a select group of some of the more powerful Cultures?
If you had to birth your prophets without them spawning free on the religion techs (which was really a band-aid fix for the time being anyhow) would you feel any differently? This is the plan.
And as frustrated as I'm getting with the repeated suggestions of making a missionary (one who spreads the established word of an existing religion) replace the free prophets, which mind you, I do understand the gamebalance cause for the suggestion, I do plan to get working on that phase of the solution very soon. I'd also like to see some ideas to make other GPs more worthwhile put to use soon as well (to give some balance.)
Your idea there does sound interesting DH. Equally, I'd ask, would it be possible to make the 'Founders' the Prophets themselves? This could give Prophets a completely new and equally powerful application that would split a player's decision between the various options they possess even further, making how to use them an even more 'interesting' decision. (I guess I assume those religion branches would be as powerful a boon as a new religion entirely.)
I had an off thought today about Great Artists... what if they were used to 'found' a select group of some of the more powerful Cultures?
WimpyTheWarrior
Warlord
These are all good arguments but in my mind these two are the most compelling. The fact that I prefer Missionaries and play without Choose Religions should not prevent others from doing so.
Apologies for raising this again if it was frustrating! I've been playing so much C2C lately I haven't been current on the boards!
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It's only frustrating because I know I need to address the underlying issue that causes you to bring it up. I know that by giving free GProph's out in place of the religion when first to a religious tech would be imbalancing. On Choose Religions, pretty much all religions are founded by the end of the Medieval era and its the shrines that take longer to build because the 'grab' is more important. And in a non-choose religions game, they are admittedly a bit too exploitable in some cases by the fact that they do have other choices they can be used for. And pretty much, if a civ wants to capture half the religions, all it really needs to do is build all the religious wonders.
So I know that its a bit out of whack.
BUT, I have plans to make the system a LOT more interesting, and what I find frustrating is that the band-aid is wearing off while I'm working towards other goals. I do need to get back to this one though and make it happen so it's gotta become a higher priority.
The feedback is still appreciated!
So I know that its a bit out of whack.
BUT, I have plans to make the system a LOT more interesting, and what I find frustrating is that the band-aid is wearing off while I'm working towards other goals. I do need to get back to this one though and make it happen so it's gotta become a higher priority.
The feedback is still appreciated!
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Thinking on it I am not sure it is such a good idea. You get a Founder only when your state religion is in 60% or more of your cities and you haven't already got one active. If you change state religion you loose the FoG wonder and need to get the new state religion to over 60% of your cities to get a new Founder. The Founder is religion speciffic not generic.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Sounds right to keep them separated in design and purpose then.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
In the latest SVN i have DP turned on and i went for Druid Relig and i am the first one there (i think so), at least no one has any religions yet. . . So where is my Prophet so i can be the 1st??(pic 1/2)
EDIT: A few turns later i see that a civ chose Shaman, and the Druid was right behind him?? )pic 3/4)
EDIT: A few turns later i see that a civ chose Shaman, and the Druid was right behind him?? )pic 3/4)
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