DLC 05 anticipation thread

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Xur said:
But it has been established a long time ago that supply and demand is a thing - you can't just take "demand" out of the equation because you want to cater to a larger group of people.
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That doesn't make any logical sense. You, correctly, point out that you can't ignore consumer demand, then you promptly state that Firaxis should ignore the demand of the larger group (people with average computers) to cater to the demands of the much smaller group (people with dedicated high-end gaming computers). :confused:
 
I don't think supply and demand is a thing with downloadable content like video games, and to a lesser extent creative endeavors. But as far as people purchasing the game and DLC go, I'd argue the people who would buy DLC and expansion packs are largely the same people who would appreciate better competition from the computer civs, so it would make some sense economically to satisfy this base. I know personally I'll need the fun factor to increase a little if I'm going to go for future DLC.

Regardless, as a creative endeavor, it's also likely they want the game to be as good as it possibly can be. While profit and costs are inseparable from the creation itself (particularly when it comes to the publishers), they are not the only things driving production.

I'd also argue there a lot of fixes that could make the computer civs more challenging, or at least more up to par with a human player, without necessarily requiring computer-bogging AI. Not free-wheeling undefended settlers around, actually building aircraft and a navy, building more troops...none of these things seem particularly taxing on a computer system. As it is now, war is almost a cheat code when it comes to the computer civs.

That's one of three items on my wish list, next to another good African civ and another good American Indian civ. I know it won't be the latter, but hopefully at least one of the former will be part of these two DLCs!
 
earlc said:
I'd also argue there a lot of fixes that could make the computer civs more challenging, or at least more up to par with a human player, without necessarily requiring computer-bogging AI. Not free-wheeling undefended settlers around, actually building aircraft and a navy, building more troops...none of these things seem particularly taxing on a computer system. As it is now, war is almost a cheat code when it comes to the computer civs.
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There are certainly improvements then can make: I certainly don't think the AI is perfect by any means. Just any legitimately challenging tactical AI is going to be exponential taxing on a system, just because Civ as a game has so many pieces to consider, and because a fog of war ads another significant element of complication to that. Of course, there are also things they could do to help alleviate that (doing some of the calculating in advance while the human player is doing their turn, for instance, though that then raises the issue of it having to 'undo' work depending on decisions made by the player.)

I do suspect there are some obvious stupid things that the AI does that they don't fix because of possible system impact. I.e. the "don't move unprotected troops through enemy territory (or unprotected embarked units in front of city defenses)" seems really obvious, but I gather at one point they just have one path finding algorithm, and I don't know if adding logic that takes enemy territory into account is a manpower issue or a system impact issue.

Anyway, I feel like I'm veering too off-topic. To swing back to the thread on hand - what do we think they'll fix in the accompanying DLC patch?

Definitely xplatform
I'm sure they'll do some AI improvement - I'd guess the fix to make the AI actually use planes might come with this patch.
Hopefully maybe a wonder rebalancing for some of the wonders - though that might be a stretch goal
At least one of the big UI todos (production queue, restart button) - but that might be getting too optimistic!
 
bbbt said:
There are certainly improvements then can make: I certainly don't think the AI is perfect by any means. Just any legitimately challenging tactical AI is going to be exponential taxing on a system, just because Civ as a game has so many pieces to consider, and because a fog of war ads another significant element of complication to that. Of course, there are also things they could do to help alleviate that (doing some of the calculating in advance while the human player is doing their turn, for instance, though that then raises the issue of it having to 'undo' work depending on decisions made by the player.)
....
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A top notch AI, sure, would need to search and have deep decision trees.

But it appears to me that that is not needed for the AI to be competitive. They seem to be missing a number of simple rules that would really improve their competitiveness. Especially when it comes to CV and Religion victories by the AI. Strategic combat is the toughest one but I believe a number of simple rules would really help alot. First, it is always tougher to attack than defend. I have always felt that the AI should have ERA based tactical configurations that it uses around cities. That at least would help slow down an attacking player. But even simpler are fixes like to the ranged units (so often they don't attack when they could and too often they move right next to your melee). Or have a rule that units always travel with a ship when crossing the ocean. And a rule that the AI 'builds up' x units before engaging. They wouldn't be great and could be worked around by the player/exploited, but not nearly as easy as we have it now.

And air combat, so lacking yet it should be the easiest one to setup a simple strategy for. Current AI don't even seem to build aircraft (I just don't see them, ever, except for choppers). Plus simple rules for when to run or attack (basically, run if not a good chance to finish off something), they pull back but rarely far enough.

Eh, it is disappointing. Civ 5 had a mod that helped with simple stuff, yet many of the same mistakes from 5 are in 6 that that mod fixed. I guess I'll have to hope for another mod because 2k doesn't seem too interested in making the AI reasonable.
 
BrokTheFanatic said:
How about, kill a Neanderthal unit with a Anthro nearby and it becomes an artifact :goodjob:
Or maybe it is time for the civ expansion, "Rise of the Planet of the Apes". Or maybe if you nuke each other enough, the apes just show up and start killing everyone off. Along with their appearance comes the GP Charlton Heston that can 1 time purge your land of all apes while yelling "get your paws off me you..."
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This calls for a mod! Modders who are here, this is a good suggestion!
 
So I wonder if we are going to see it this week?
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
I think there's a small chance of seeing a First Look and a decent chance of seeing the Achievements, but probably later this week, rather than earlier.
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You know, if Firaxis are browsing the thread today and wanted a way to discredit you so that none of us listen to your highly accurate predictions ever again and turn back into midless sheeple customers, they should add the DLC achievements this afternoon to make you look foolish.

Hint, hint.... :mischief:
 
earlc said:
I don't think supply and demand is a thing with downloadable content like video games..
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As someone who works in the Software Development industry with a minor in Economics, I felt required to respond to this statement. Supply and Demand has a HUGE impact on all software development, including (and one could argue especially) DLC and other follow on content like patches. Although it doesn't necessarily use the most common resources (which are usually Raw Materials for Supply and Profit for Demand) - there is still a cost-benefit analysis that has to be performed.

In this case Supply is most easily equated to Development Man Power (but also includes Marketing time/cost and other opportunity costs related to what your staff could be working on instead). Meanwhile, Demand is still primarily equated to how many people will buy it at a certain price point (which translates to Profit - aka how much $ will the DLC make). However, in the case of a Free Patch (which will almost certainly be included with at least 1 of the DLC's) other "value" is included in the overall analysis. For example, the amount of goodwill and word of mouth (reviews on Steam, threads on forums, etc) will lead back to better sales of past, present AND future content.

The most obvious display of this goodwill "value" side of the equation is the fact that DLC 5 and 6 will be free to DDE customers. That decision was still based on a Cost/Benefit analysis. Someone determined that the current state of the consumer landscape had a lower Demand then they desired. This was either seen as a risk to the sales of a future expansion pack, or a risk that people who normally buy their product late via a GotY edition or some other bundled product - wouldn't make that purchase. They then determined that reduced Demand would outweigh the cost (Supply of manpower) to produce the DLC and also provide it free to a certain extent of their customer base.

With follow on products, some of which you give away for free, it becomes a complex system of multiple interrelated Supply and Demand calculations. But to say that they don't apply would be erroneous.

*adjusts nerd glasses and returns to lurking*
 
Too bad "communicating with paying customers, like at all" is not part of said "value" analysis....
 
Katakanja said:
You know, if Firaxis are browsing the thread today and wanted a way to discredit you so that none of us listen to your highly accurate predictions ever again and turn back into midless sheeple customers, they should add the DLC achievements this afternoon to make you look foolish.

Hint, hint.... :mischief:
Click to expand...

Make me a fool then. A pleasure to jest. :jester: I thought we had a jester emoji!?
 
DizzKneeLand33 said:
Too bad "communicating with paying customers, like at all" is not part of said "value" analysis....
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Communication with fans is a major part of ensuring success for any business, as part of public relations.

After all, businesses rely on loyal customers, as well as first-timers, for continued patronage.

Being transparent like a ten-foot thick block of lead will lead to complaints building up (with no one assuring them) and first-timers will see those complaints, leading to reduced sales.
 
DJ_Tanner said:
You gonna show up to a mob with a lousy pitchfork?

Yeah I'm sure they will be reasonable about that, mobs are known for their reason.
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Can't I stand at the back and hold a burning stick instead? There always seems to be a lot of that going on with angry mobs.

EDIT: Surely this little guy is an adequate replacement for a pitchfork man :trouble:
 
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