Do people actually like Eurekas/Inspirations?

[Boris Gudenuf]

Fair, but realistically I'm almost positive that a bolas has a shorter range than a sling...I'd probably give it higher damage and a chance to stun the enemy.

Not familiar with the Bola as a military weapon, but generally it is much shorter ranged than a sling, but also has a disabling effect regardless of the armor or protection of the target, which could be the source of a 'unique effect' for the weapon.
To digress briefly on Slings...
Slings in general fall into two distinct categories: those that use rocks as missiles, and those that use streamlined lead pellets. The former are the cheap weapon of every sheep or cattle herder man or boy and so provide, as in the game, a 'basic' missile weapon. The latter Outrange bows, and have the added feature that the lead shot cannot be seen easily in flight, so unlike arrows, you can't dodge them. Therefore they are particularly deadly against unarmored troops and skirmishers - like archers. During the Middle Ages a bunch of mercenary English longbowmen were shot to pieces by Baleric slingers using lead shot, both because the shot outranged the direct shot of the longbow, and because the slingers were dodging the arrows while the bowmen were getting their brains splattered all over the landscape by 'invisible' lead shot.
Of course, good slingers are like longbowmen in that they require years of training and practice. That really makes them specialized troops rather than the bulk of any nation's missile troops.

I'd love to see City States provide possible Mercenary Troops the way some did in Civ V, so that we could add a City State from Crete or the Baleric Islands, both home to famous Classical/Medieval lead-pellet slingers, which would provide Slingers with increased effect against enemy Ranged Troops and a 2 tile range.

 

[Victoria]

Fair, but realistically I'm almost positive that a bolas has a shorter range than a sling...I'd probably give it higher damage and a chance to stun the enemy.

They used atlatl from waaay back. A bit of wiggle room, consider it a staff sling. Bolas were quite short indeed

 

[Icicle]

I think a lot of the monotony and repetitiveness of eureka/inspiration could be alleviated if there were alternative ways to earn them. Especially for some of the ones that you have to go out of your way for. While adding an alternative means unique to every tech and civic is probably not realistic, more ways to get random/targeted eurekas/inspirations I think could make things more fun.

Alternative examples could be - wonders/policies/government promotions that let you force them with faith/gold or build them as city projects, or great people/wonders always giving them to you even if they are obsolete when you build them (which seems to happen to me a lot, or is a reason I don't bother with certain wonders). Also trading/buying them from other civs if you have a high enough alliance. Things like that.

As it is my main issue with them is it makes the games very samey when one of the main draws of replaying civ in the past has been how every game can go very differently.

 

[Zaarin]

I think a lot of the monotony and repetitiveness of eureka/inspiration could be alleviated if there were alternative ways to earn them. Especially for some of the ones that you have to go out of your way for. While adding an alternative means unique to every tech and civic is probably not realistic, more ways to get random/targeted eurekas/inspirations I think could make things more fun.

Alternative examples could be - wonders/policies/government promotions that let you force them with faith/gold or build them as city projects, or great people/wonders always giving them to you even if they are obsolete when you build them (which seems to happen to me a lot, or is a reason I don't bother with certain wonders). Also trading/buying them from other civs if you have a high enough alliance. Things like that.

As it is my main issue with them is it makes the games very samey when one of the main draws of replaying civ in the past has been how every game can go very differently.

I think this would be helpful, especially for some of the techs/civics that have really...dubious Eurakas/Inspirations: How likely am I to build an Aquaduct if I'm not playing Rome or Khmer (really, the Aquaduct needs some love)? How likely am I to build four Sewers (aka expensive worthless Neighborhoods) except to get the bonus? I can't even fathom building four Entertainment Complexes unless my empire is reaaaaaally spread out. Even some that you might aim for can be tough to achieve; for example, if you're shooting for a culture victory then theming museums is a great idea--but also largely a matter of luck, whether we're talking about art or archaeology. So yeah, I could see giving select techs and civics alternate boosts.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think a lot of the monotony and repetitiveness of eureka/inspiration could be alleviated if there were alternative ways to earn them. Especially for some of the ones that you have to go out of your way for. While adding an alternative means unique to every tech and civic is probably not realistic, more ways to get random/targeted eurekas/inspirations I think could make things more fun.

Alternative examples could be - wonders/policies/government promotions that let you force them with faith/gold or build them as city projects, or great people/wonders always giving them to you even if they are obsolete when you build them (which seems to happen to me a lot, or is a reason I don't bother with certain wonders). Also trading/buying them from other civs if you have a high enough alliance. Things like that.

As it is my main issue with them is it makes the games very samey when one of the main draws of replaying civ in the past has been how every game can go very differently.

This is why I suggested having multiple Eurekas per Tech/Civic, and all more carefully tied to the technology, civic, or unit from them that you are trying to achieve. IF you were willing to massively commit to the Tech, you could get all three 'Bonuses' and 'beeline' the Tech/Civic, but you could still get some bonus from just one Eureka without having to skew your whole strategy.

I think this would be helpful, especially for some of the techs/civics that have really...dubious Eurakas/Inspirations: How likely am I to build an Aquaduct if I'm not playing Rome or Khmer (really, the Aquaduct needs some love)? How likely am I to build four Sewers (aka expensive worthless Neighborhoods) except to get the bonus? I can't even fathom building four Entertainment Complexes unless my empire is reaaaaaally spread out. Even some that you might aim for can be tough to achieve; for example, if you're shooting for a culture victory then theming museums is a great idea--but also largely a matter of luck, whether we're talking about art or archaeology. So yeah, I could see giving select techs and civics alternate boosts.

A serious consideration overlaying this whole discussion of whether people like Eurekas is the really BAD Eurekas that the game has now that are not related to the Techs or units they are supposed to be relevant to.
Good Example: Building an Aqueduct to Boost Military Engineering. Because, you know, so often in history an army has been defeated by pouring water on them from an elevated channel...
Instead, I'd require Build a Lumber Mill. Why? because it means you've got Machinery, which requires Engineering, which really should have been the required Tech for Military Engineering, so this would require that your Military Engineers have both Construction and Engineering behind them - which rather neatly encapsulates the curriculum of every military engineering school ever established.

It's not, I think, whether people like Eurekas, but would they like well-thought-out Eurekas, as opposed to what we have now...

 

[hakinaro]

I think part of the problem are there are to many and some for things that require no effort like meeting another civ it's guaranteed to happen. Some are made irrelevant by how the map is you walk three squares and oh you discovered another continent somehow etc. 2 techs at least require you to kill a unit to get a eureka on another that slinger to archer and spearman to pikeman going from a sling to a bow is a huge step in history and development making a better spear into a halberd not so much so there should only be one eureka or something along those lines

 

[Zaarin]

I think part of the problem are there are to many and some for things that require no effort like meeting another civ it's guaranteed to happen.

I've had weird maps where I've not met another civ until well after I've researched Writing. Same with finding another continent and Foreign Trade. Those aren't the norm, but they happen.

 

[acluewithout]

Aqueducts, sewers and neighbourhoods are basically fine. No, they’re not optimal. But very few things get built if you’re playing optimally, so don’t hold that against aqueducts. Playing optimally means picking between stuff which is efficient to do and what isn’t.

The point is acqueducts etc. aren’t rubbish. Aqueducts in particular are quite okay - you get housing, but also another district for adjacency.

And getting Eurekas etc. is part of the value of these districts / buildings. I’m mostly okay with building things just for Eurekas.

Finding continents or meeting other Civs are inevitable, but what’s the problem? They create interesting timing issues. Like, I haven’t found a continent yet, I don’t have time to build a scout, so I hard research that civic or wait to get the boost.

And as for the this or that eureka isn’t historically accurate - well, yes. But let’s not get too caught up about that. There are also gameplay reasons for some Eurekas. You need to give FXS a bit of room. If you look, some Techs and Civics have Eurekas that require some other Tech or Civic from a very different part of the tree to be researched - this makes bee-lining harder, but also leta other Civs that researched that other part of the tree to then catch-up on other parts.

To me, tweaking Eurekas just comes down to this:

- The build two forts eureka does have a real problem, because forts really are just so useless currently. This could be fixed by giving forts a slight boost. I’d like to see forts give +0.5 housing and maybe +1 loyalty.

- I’m okay with Aqueducts, Sewers and Neighbourhoods etc., and their related boosts but agree the last two could use a little love. Something like sewers make you city centre give a +1 adjacency instead of +0.5, and Neighbourhoods also give +1 adjacency. I’d also like Aqueducts to give +1 Appeal, just for fun

- No more kill x with y. It’s just too tedious. I’d rather just have a more general build x of y units.

- A few Eurekas are a little too easy, eg you should have to build two quarries for stone working, not one.

- The eurekas for swordsmen and knights are way, way too easy.

 

[Zaarin]

Aqueducts, sewers and neighbourhoods are basically fine. No, they’re not optimal. But very few things get built if you’re playing optimally, so don’t hold that against aqueducts. Playing optimally means picking between stuff which is efficient to do and what isn’t.

I don't play optimally; I play for fun. But I never build Aquaducts unless I'm playing as Rome or Khmer because taking up a whole tile for +2 housing isn't just non-optimal--it's utterly pointless. And if it's giving you the full +6 housing, either you should have planned your city better in the first place because it's still early game and plenty of fresh water is available or else Neighborhoods are likely available because it's late game and you're settling a city away from water to obtain Oil or Aluminum or Uranium or whatever resource the game has decided to cheat you on.

Aquaducts were a big deal historically; they could use some major revising to make worthwhile in Civ6. Making them cheaper and making them extend more than one tile would be starts. Making them provide food and amenities, or have buildings provide food and amenities, might also be nice--so make Rome's Bath provide culture and a bonus amenity.

 

[acluewithout]

Well, I’m certainly not against buffing Aqueducts really, although I haven’t seen any great suggestions as to how. But aqueducts are actually quite useful.

I find I’m often building them in cities with lots of plains hills. These cities have the potential to be very productive, but struggle to grow because little room for farms, and certainly no room for adjacent farms. These cities can also build acqueducts quickly because they do have high production. The extra housing is therefore very useful, and having an extra district for adjacency is nice too.

The only building or district (whatever) I can see that is unremittingly bad is the fort. But that’s not totally the forts fault - it’s also because the AI isn’t good enough at war for these improvements to really shine.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, I’m certainly not against buffing Aqueducts really, although I haven’t seen any great suggestions as to how. But aqueducts are actually quite useful

Digression on Aqueducts:
They should not be a District. They are linear constructions that can stretch for dozens of miles - far outside an city radius, in fact. So make them an Improvement rather like the Great Wall - have to be built stretching from the city center to a Mountain, Oasis, River or Lake. Adds +6 or +2 Housing as before. In addition, Neighborhoods adjacent to an Aqueduct get +1 Housing: access to nice, fresh water ads to the Appeal of the tile...
Like Roads, Aqueducts can be built 'over' other Improvements like Plantations, Farms or Mines.
Each Tile of Aqueduct requires 1 Builder large IF it is a 'flat' tile: plains, desert, tundra, marsh or grasslands. through a Hill Tile requires 2 Charges.
Like other Improvements, Aqueducts can be Pillaged, which could suddenly drop your available Housing catastrophically - but, that happened to Rome historically, so that's the price you pay for getting an Aqueduct built faster than if you were building a District.

The Roman Bath should be a Building, which can be built in a City Center that has access to fresh water (aqueduct or dark green tile) and provides +1 Amenity. I would love to see a new Wonder as well: Baths of Caracalla, which would provide Amenities, Gold and Culture boost to the city.

 

[acluewithout]

But if Aqueducts weren’t a district, they wouldn’t give district adjacency bonus? And you can pillage them already - and that (I believe) reduces housing. But it’s obviously harder to repair a district rather than an improvement.

They really are fine. Not optimal. Not something you’d build in every city. But fine.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

But if Aqueducts weren’t a district, they wouldn’t give district adjacency bonus? And you can pillage them already - and that (I believe) reduces housing. But it’s obviously harder to repair a district rather than an improvement.

They really are fine. Not optimal. Not something you’d build in every city. But fine.

Aqueducts are well down on my list of Things That Need To Change in Civ VI: well after, for instance , the basic Eurekas and Bonuses, the Trade Systems, Diplomatic Options for the Human Player, Units, Resources, Barbarians, Tribal Villages, City States - well, actually, they may be near the bottom of the list - near, because I don't think all of the music needs changing and I'm Okay with the fonts used in the UI...

But if they don't give District agency bonuses, so what? Give an Improvement Agency Bonus - every tile the Aqueduct Improvement passes through or adjacent to gets a Fresh Water Bonus - and that includes tiles with farms or plantations on them, since the 'aqueduct' now would include the influence of long-distance Irrigation Systems like the qanats of the Afghan kingdoms. You lose nothing by the conversion to Improvement, you gain more reasons for investing in an Aqueduct System, and we 'free up' a District slot for some new District type which I am sure they are contemplating for the next Expansion...

 

[Karmah]

Yes I do

 

[Zaarin]

Digression on Aqueducts:
They should not be a District. They are linear constructions that can stretch for dozens of miles - far outside an city radius, in fact. So make them an Improvement rather like the Great Wall - have to be built stretching from the city center to a Mountain, Oasis, River or Lake. Adds +6 or +2 Housing as before. In addition, Neighborhoods adjacent to an Aqueduct get +1 Housing: access to nice, fresh water ads to the Appeal of the tile...
Like Roads, Aqueducts can be built 'over' other Improvements like Plantations, Farms or Mines.
Each Tile of Aqueduct requires 1 Builder large IF it is a 'flat' tile: plains, desert, tundra, marsh or grasslands. through a Hill Tile requires 2 Charges.
Like other Improvements, Aqueducts can be Pillaged, which could suddenly drop your available Housing catastrophically - but, that happened to Rome historically, so that's the price you pay for getting an Aqueduct built faster than if you were building a District.

The Roman Bath should be a Building, which can be built in a City Center that has access to fresh water (aqueduct or dark green tile) and provides +1 Amenity. I would love to see a new Wonder as well: Baths of Caracalla, which would provide Amenities, Gold and Culture boost to the city.

That sounds like exactly how they should work IMO.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, as an improvement they're probably tempting. Although I think you'd have to drop it down to just being a flat +2 housing, maybe +3 if the city doesn't have fresh water, since a +6 tile improvement is probably too much.

Roman baths you could still keep as a tile improvement - it would basically be an ancient era version of the Golf Course. 1 per city, next to fresh water, +1 amenity and +2 housing. Maybe have it add some culture/tourism later.

 

[acluewithout]

Aqueducts are well down on my list of Things That Need To Change in Civ VI: well after, for instance , the basic Eurekas and Bonuses, the Trade Systems, Diplomatic Options for the Human Player, Units, Resources, Barbarians, Tribal Villages, City States - well, actually, they may be near the bottom of the list - near, because I don't think all of the music needs changing and I'm Okay with the fonts used in the UI...

But if they don't give District agency bonuses, so what? Give an Improvement Agency Bonus - every tile the Aqueduct Improvement passes through or adjacent to gets a Fresh Water Bonus - and that includes tiles with farms or plantations on them, since the 'aqueduct' now would include the influence of long-distance Irrigation Systems like the qanats of the Afghan kingdoms. You lose nothing by the conversion to Improvement, you gain more reasons for investing in an Aqueduct System, and we 'free up' a District slot for some new District type which I am sure they are contemplating for the next Expansion...

I like Aqueducts being a district because they add to the whole rubik’s cube / tetris district placement. Losing the district adjacency means they don’t play that role anymore, which I actually think is quite fun.

If they are an improvement, then they will also then be spamable, very easy to repair, and will lower the value of existing unique improvements that give housing.

As they are, Aqueducts are situational: they require significant investment, create risks if they are liable to be pillaged, and their benefit is very tied to the specific layout of your city and the map. Make them an improvement with say +2 housing, and you’ll just have them in every city, which is boring.

Civ needs to have some things that are not awesome and just “there”. If everything is awesome, it all becomes noise. Aqueducts are just one of those boring things you may not use much, but they round out the various districts and are situationally handy (but even then, not earth shattering). A bit like farms and water mills.

 

[Ferocitus]

Which depending on the creature in question really isn't that hard.

Well, duh!

I mean, Linnaeus' original taxonomy included the kraken.

The "Pliny of the North.
If they mean the Elder one does that suggest that he's regarded as
an imbecile in matters natural?

 

[cinattra]

I think this discussion has hit on something. Learning in the past for most was not done in a library. If you wanted to learn something you went to the person that knew the thing that you wanted to learn.and you apprenticed. Or you learned simply by trial and error and then the light bulb moment happens and you figured a better way of doing something.

Most of mankind for most of human history has been illiterate. It's not the eurekas that are the problem it's the library/university that's the problem. Early tech should be aided by activity and not be library/university driven. Every time something is built it should contribute to knowledge whether it is by build queue or by worker. Defeat an opponent in battle should contribute to knowledge and not just experience points for the unit. Discover something or meet someone new should contribute to your knowledge.

Ancient libraries should be changed to what they really were and that is an archive. They should add to culture and or economy. The University should probably become the first building for the campus district probably with guilds I'm guessing, but maybe sooner. Before that libraries should be wonders because they were mainly private and for the literate.

 

[acluewithout]

@cinattra Yes.

This has come up elsewhere, but I do think the campus unlocks too early. So does the Government Plaza - it would have been much cooler unlocking at say Medieval.

But these districts are deeply imbedded in the current mechanics and game balance, so I can't see either changing or that even working.