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Do people actually like Eurekas/Inspirations?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by noto2, May 28, 2018.

  1. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

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    I hate the eureka/inspirations.

    Just adds a massive element of luck to the game and rigidity to optimal build orders. a barb scout randomly entering your slingers line of sight can be the difference between saving 4 turns of early science research or not. I just really dislike it.

    Is there a mod that removes them but removes it for the AI as well? I know there is a mod to turn them off but I'm not sure if it will put you at too big of a disadvantage with the AI
     
  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Well, yes and no.
    The earliest libraries that have been discovered (Nineveh and Ebla) date back to 7th century BCE and were definitely 'archival' in that the bulk of the materials seem to have been lists of trade goods, warehoused military and construction materials, records of government decrees and diplomatic records. On the other hand, the Assyrians also collected literature both religious and otherwise, and the Egyptians quite early included 'novels' or purely known-to-be-fiction literature.
    And while the bulk of the population was illiterate until, in most states, Industrial Era (and, I would argue, is reverting to 'Willfully Illiterate' in the USA today) in Classical Greece, Rome, and China the upper classes were virtually Required to be literate: if you were not acquainted with the 'canon' of cultural literature of the society, you were simply not part of the society or government. Consequently, as early as the 5th century BCE several Greek city states had Public Libraries, open to all citizens of the city, and within a hundred years there were specialized Philosophical and Technical libraries open to the public.

    BUT you have a good point: the Tech Tree now combines Scientific with Technical Knowledge: that is, Why Things Work with How To Make Them Work. The former requires influence from as many people as possible thinking about Philosophical and Scientific Principles and sharing that thinking (libraries and other institutions) while the latter is based on attempts to make things work and work better by thousands of people engaged in their daily activities.
    I think that the Eureka system, properly engaged, provides the basis for the latter: if you do certain things, they should lead you to do other things better, it's just that now the Eurekas are too often only distantly related to the process they are supposed to 'Eurek'.
    For the former, if we assume that Literacy rather than Archive is the basis for Learning, then the library should probably be replaced by the School. The problem is that a lot of the ancient/classical 'literacy' came from in-home tutorial schooling, not easily reduced to a Civ Building.

    Some possibilities:
    Scribal Schools (frequently associated with Temples in Mesopotamia, Egypt, dating back to 1500 BCE)
    Academies (Classical Greece)

    Another possible 'Boost' to learning would be the concentrations of workshops found in classical Greek, Middle Eastern, and Roman (and Chinese) cities: streets or 'quarters' where thousands of artisans were concentrated in the same industry, virtual factories' where armor and weapons, wood, leather, cloth or metal work, jewels and other decorative work, all were done. This produced both increased Production but also a 'fertilization' of new techniques, like specialized decorated pottery in Greece, dyed and decorated clothing everywhere, specialized armor and weapons in Rome (which in early Imperial times, also had real armament Factories with hundreds of workers doing coordinated work on weapons and armor for the Legions)

    As for the Campus District, this is obviously an artificial game-construct. With the possible exception of the Imperial Libraries of Assyria and the concentration of philosophical 'Academes' in Athens, there just wasn't any such thing as a 'learning area' in a city until the late-Renaissance University, and even then aside from the university itself, the most common other buildings in the area were student bars and brothels rather than Libraries! I can live with the 'Campus' as a place to concentrate Schools or Academies until the University arrives, just to keep the Science part of the game in line with the other Game Mechanisms.

    On the other hand, the real beginning of the Renaissance, I would argue, was not the Fall of Constantinople, but the advent of the Printing Press: within 50 years after Gutenburg's first effort, there were presses all over Europe, and the vast majority of the books being printed (aside from Bibles) were non-fiction 'how to' manuals on everything from Agriculture to Mining to Zoology. This provided a Quantum Leap in the spread of practical knowledge which in turn led to a literal explosion of applications. Right now, the discovery and application of the Printing Press is pretty much a minor 'blip' in the game. It should be Huge for your Tech Tree progress.
     
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I have a lot of sympathy with FXS for a lot of this tech stuff. On the one hand, you want to reflect historical trends. On the other, it’s got to work as a game. And on the other (no wait, I have three hands now), getting this historically correct can require lots of expert and even then some things are heavily disputed.

    Just in terms of game play though, I do think way too much is front loaded in Civ, and that’s part of what makes the mid game boring. By the end of the classical era, you have all the “fun” districts, including the government plaza, pretty much all of the unit types except air (boo) and spies (huzzah!), and all the different card types (red, yellow, green, wildcard and legacy) and all the Governors.

    I think the only unique / mechanically new things really “held back” (apart from planes and spies) are Neighbourhoods (which (almost) no one likes), Floating Enterainment Districts (but really you already have the ED) and Air Encampments (which don’t really do anything except build planes), Artifacts (kind of like buried art works), some diplomatic options, and some regional affects for districts (which were nerfed shortly after release).

    Seriously FXS, you should hold back a little more stuff. You give it all away too soon! Like maybe the Government Plaza should have waited till the medieval era to unlock? (although that would be messy.) Or maybe wild cards should have waited until second tier governments (sorry Greece)?
     
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  4. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    The early Districts are accurate in that religion, government, military, and commerce/trade were all emphasized from Ancient Times (Bronze Age Empires for sure) and while the Campus District is artificial, within the context of the game design it is sort of required for Science before you get to the late Medieval/Renaissance Eras.
    BUT they might change the Effects of the Districts to 'Late Load' some of them.

    For examples 'off the top of my head':
    Trade and Commerce expanded enormously in the Industrial Era with cheap manufactured goods, a possible 'crossover' Trade/Gold effect from Factories, and then it expanded again in the Atomic Era with Containerized Shipping, which would provide extra Trade/Gold benefits from having Commercial, Harbor, and Aerodrome District in the same city. Factoring in both of those into Buildings in the District would provide major reasons to 'reorganize' your Commercial Activity in late-game.
    Some sort of Government District is appropriate for the (early) Classical Era and later, but the major expansion of government ability to Tax and Effect populations came with the educated bureaucracies of the Industrial Era and later: the sheer efficiency of tax collection alone between, say, the Classical Roman Empire and the early Industrial Era French or English/British Empires was enormous, and the influence of government on daily life continues to grow world wide in the last 1/2 of the Game-Time. Perhaps get your Government District early but with limited benefits (some Adjacencies, maybe a Special District of Forum for the Romans?) but delay most of the 'Improvement' Buildings in the District until the Industrial Era and later.
    Commerce, in the form of 'international' Trade especially, was a massive contribution to both economic and diplomatic activities from Ancient Era on, but the Commercial District should interact much more thoroughly with the Harbor starting in the late Classical and with the Industrial District starting in the Industrial Era: the influence of Factories, especially, on Trade and Commerce is greatly underrepresented in the game, and it could change the entire way you organize your Civ in the last half of the game, depending on whether you have the resources (including Gold, Trade, and 'raw materials') to Industrialize or not - see histories of England, Holland, and Italy for good and bad examples.
     
  5. cinattra

    cinattra Warlord

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    My concern is that Civ treats the pre-industrial world like the post-industrial world. Eurekas and such are definitely pre-industrial for the most part. A lot of new knowledge happened, this was for most of civilized history before the scientific method. Yes, there were schools, yes, there were libraries, and yes there were universities, but not on the scale that happens after the industrial revolution. We really were too concerned with bringing in the harvest so we didn't starve because that was a very real possibility.

    Some game mechanics should change, evolve or something to represent the impact of the steam engine, and trains and factories and also education because the population needed a certain level of educational competence to be apprenticed fast enough after the industrial revolution.

    Yeah, I know it's probably a little late for that type of revolution in Civ6, but hey you never know.
     
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    For gameplay reasons we’re stuck having a campus in the ancient era.

    But I really think the Government Plaza should be pushed back to Medieval era. Here’s my thinking:

    - By the Medieval Era, there is only one core (fun) district left: the Industrial Zone. It makes districts too front loaded.

    - Getting the Government Plaza in the Medieval Era would also make the Medieval era feel more significant, particularly if you then made the Plaza a pre-requisite for unlocking second tier governments.

    - You’d have to rework Tier 1 Plaza buildings. My suggestion is you change the Tier 1 buildings from being Government Plaza buildings to be being city centre buildings that can only be built in your capital (or maybe a city with at least 2 districts). These buildings would otherwise work exactly the same way: you get them at Political Philosophy, they continue giving you their current bonus, they give you a legacy card, and are mutually exclusive.

    - You then have many a new Plaza Tier 1 building called a High Court (or something), which you can build in the Medieval Era, and lets you then build court houses in other cities (either court houses are either city centre buildings or a district- I don’t know which). You still have your Tier 2 and 3 Plaza buildings. Only the Tier 2 and 3 Buildings give you Legacy Cards.

    - The advantage of this approach is that while it does push back the Government Plaza to make the Medieval Era more important, it still recognises that government administration started in the Ancient and Classical Eras. It’s just that in those eras your government infrastructure is focused in your capital or another major city; from the Medieval Era onwards, it gets its own “district” or “precinct” outside of the actual city.
     
  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    It would change game play, but would it diminish it or maybe improve it if the Campus became a Medieval district?

    It would slow down science progression, and place greater importance on other sources of science. Early UIs that provide science would have to be rethought, and the Science yield from Iron reassigned (Iron's already powerful). And in the context of this thread, it would place even more importance on getting Eurekas.

    Moving the Library to the city centre could also be considered. Maybe the Library becomes a +1 Science / +1 Culture building to contrast with the Monument's Culture/Loyalty combination.
     
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  8. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I'd like to move the campus back, but I think the problem would be that whoever then got to campuses first, and got the big jump in science, would then cream everybody else.

    Civ is also balanced around being able to get the two research yields from the outset. So, losing campuses early would be tricky (but I guess that's what your suggestion about the library is directed at).

    It's a very interesting idea though...
     
  9. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Historically, we can justify a 'Science Enhancing' District in the Classical Era. Plato's 'Academy' was started about 347 BCE, followed by a host of other philosophical 'schools' in Athens and other Greek city-states, and the first Chinese Civil Service Examinations were conducted about 6 CE, implying by then a network of 'Confucian' schools to teach the subjects being examined.
    Public Libraries start as early as the 5th century BCE in Greece, culminating in the Museum (Great Library) of Alexandria in 323 BCE.

    So, as I see it, the question isn't so much in moving the Campus District back, but in What Building to be the first tier Science-Enhancer in the District, available about mid-Classical Era? Library has been the default Civ Choice in, as far as I know, All the Civ Games, but it is not, perhaps, the best choice.

    And later in the Medieval Era, the case can be made that at least as much 'useful technology learning' was taking place within the Guild-Apprentice 'hands-on' System as in the early Universities. The 'jump-start' to the mechanically-driven Industrial Revolution, it has been argued, owed as much to the fact that the majority of the adult population of Scotland was literate as to the economic impulses screaming for mass production of cheap goods. That literacy, in turn, was a direct result of wanting every adult to be able to read the bible for themselves in the Scots Presbyterian Church.

    And 'way earlier, the earliest 'primary literacy schools' - complete with piles of practice cuneiform tablets full of 'spelling' errors left behind by students - in Sumer and other early states in Mesopotamia, seem to have been connected to Temples and Palaces that required people who could keep track and record tax and tithe collections, offerings, rules and laws.

    My point is, perhaps the Campus District can move to the late Medieval-early Renaissance but a School Enhancement for science could be an early Religious Structure or even 'attached' to the Palace?
    Perhaps there could be 'unique' Science Enhancers like the Greek Philosophical Academies or the Confucian Schools available through a combination of Techs and Civics, or possibly only if you maintained a certain Social Policy?
    And, of course, the best way to show the impact of 'hands on' learning is through a really good set of Eurekas and Bonuses, so that doing/accomplishing things that are directly pertinent to the Tech or Civic dramatically speeds up your progress.

    By the way, Kudos to the people starting these discussions - to paraphrase Socrates:
    "An unexamined Game is not worth playing."
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
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  10. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I think the tech progression is fine for early eras. It's actually the later part of the tech tree that becomes problematic.
     
  11. graffen69

    graffen69 Chieftain

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    This is the shorter version of a post I brought up in the 2k forum eight months ago (btw never seen a dev respond to any thread there) in the 38 suggestions thread and the whole thread in Civ6 and Eureka moment.

    "To optimize your tech tree you switch skill every time it reaches 50% (40% in the case of China) and learn something else to eventually trigger them all and thereby minimize the time you research all Techs. The way it prolly should have been implemented was as a currency, that upon reaching a specific threshold, you allocated your Eureka points in to whatever tech you wish and then you start from scratch with an increased number to trigger the next Eureka moment. That way you a) cannot trigger eureka for every tech and b) it brings more replay value since you want to specify differently depending on what Civ you play.
    The irony of it is the alternative system I mention is already in the game (more or less) but it only applies to Great Person Points. Once you’ve unlocked one Great Person you start building up new GP points anew.
    I´m somewhat puzzled > was this ever considered by the devs and if so why was it not implemented?"

    I still think the Eureka system could be tweaked further and that it currently contradicts itself (as described in the longer post).
     
  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Something we haven’t talked about is Tribal Huts / Great People and Eurekas.

    Civtrader6’s videos here are very interesting - he holds off using GP that grant Eurekas until he’s fulfilled all the “easy” Eureka quests so he doesn’t wast the GP’s Eurekas. That’s a really good strategy, he’s a really good player, but being able to do that undercuts the Eureka system a little. Maybe.

    Goody huts are the opposite problem. Early on, they often give you Eurekas which would otherwise be easy to get, which sometimes annoys me because now I don’t have a reason to do X. Eurekas from Goody Huts later game just seem nuts.

    Maybe Eurekas for particular actions should only be for the early eras. After that, maybe you should get Eurekas from - I don’t know - trading tech with your neighbours, or being awarded Great People.

    Or maybe you could have specific projects you can run based around high level ideas - eg a communism project or particle physics - and when these complete you get certain later era Eurekas?

    I don’t know. I really like the Eureka system. I can’t really see many ways to make it better.
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    A good example I like was in GOTM, America’s domestic culture jumped 5 points in a turn and when checked it was shown to be down to them getting 2 inspirations in a turn. That can really mess up your CV plan
     
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