Do people actually like Eurekas/Inspirations?

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Back on topic please.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[nzcamel]

Well, except that all too often I get a 'Eureka' for Tech: Sailing from some &^%$ Tribal Village when my first two cities are in the middle of the continent 10 - 15 tiles from the nearest body of water bigger than a Damp Sponge. Like finding money in your old pocket and it turns out to be an East German mark, worth about 6 cents even when there was an East Germany...

While any bonus is good, I always seem to get eurekas/inspirations from goody huts that were ones I was on track to getting anyway. That grinds my gears

Actually, we can make a good case that by the time the game starts in 4000 BCE, many if not most 'starting civilizations' already have access to a varied set of Technologies. Starting everybody off with Agriculture is based on the idea that agriculture is a requirement to feed a city, but it means that other Technologies discovered and exploited long, long before the game's nominal start time are relegated to post-start research. Two worst examples: People had domesticated animals like sheep and cattle about 3-4000 years before the game starts, yet in game you have to research Animal Husbandry to do the same thing. The Aegean islands, Cyprus and Crete had all been settled by people from the mainlands of Asia Minor and Greece 3 - 5000 years before the game starts, but nothing in the game can do anything with a water tile until Sailing is researched.
Instead of a city built on the coast giving you a boost towards Sailing, especially if it is for first city in 4000 BCE it should give you instantly the ability for your Builders, Scouts and Settlers to move over Coastal Tiles and build Fishing Boats - there is evidence of both net and spear fishing of fish and even organized whale hunting long before the game's 'Start Date'.
If your first city has Sheep, Cattle or Horses in its starting radius, your first Builder should be able to start right in pasteurizing those animals, because you can bet that your people had long since Domesticated them before that city was founded.

Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Boating/Fishing are all possible Starting technologies in addition to or instead of Agriculture, so that the Technological differentiation of Civilizations in the game could start from the very first turn, not X turns later when they start to diverge in their Research.

I don't disagree with this; but I think Civ as a game has other priorities better worked on than getting ancient tech levels true to history. That could work in a game that was solely about the Ancient/Classical time period.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't disagree with this; but I think Civ as a game has other priorities better worked on than getting ancient tech levels true to history. That could work in a game that was solely about the Ancient/Classical time period.

I agree. The Civ VI Tech Tree starts off bad and gets steadily worse Era by Era. Unfortunately, if the Civ Game design History going back to at least Civ IV is any indication, we will not see any major revision of the Tech Tree until Civ VII. No matter how Bad, the Tech Tree seems to be writ in Stone for the duration of the game.

Our best bet for changing it, as this Thread is discussing, is perhaps to get the Eureka system revised to make the Bonuses more applicable and pertinent to Tech progress and the Geographical/Social/Civic influences on Tech Progress.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Boating/Fishing are all possible Starting technologies in addition to or instead of Agriculture, so that the Technological differentiation of Civilizations in the game could start from the very first turn, not X turns later when they start to diverge in their Research.

This was a feature of past Civ games. It differentiated the early turns a little bit, but not too much as I recall. The current system works fine in my opinion: you base the priority and timing of what you research by what you will benefit from the most.

For example, the path to Huey Teocali should probably be more like "work lake tiles for 20 turns and have researched Mathematics or Construction".

Having additional conditions for Wonders is interesting. This already exists in terms of map conditions and building requirements. Adding other conditions could be possible like "trade route road must pass through the tile" for Petra. The more conditions there are for a Wonder, however, the less likely the AI is to build it. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on your taste, I suppose.

 

[Zaarin]

This was a feature of past Civ games. It differentiated the early turns a little bit, but not too much as I recall. The current system works fine in my opinion: you base the priority and timing of what you research by what you will benefit from the most.

I think the biggest issue is that all of the early techs already existed--had already existed for thousands of years in most cases--when the game begins. I mean we often identify archaeological cultures by their pottery (Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, etc.). It would be an improvement just to skip over that first tier of research. Of course, there are plenty of problems remaining, like the fact that apprenticeship existed long before it shows up on the tech tree. Also a linear tree will always have problems, because while sometimes Technology A or Concept A is required to develop Technology B, just as often technology shows up when it does through sheer accident (cf. coffee not being exploited until the 17th century, even though the technology to brew coffee had existed for millennia) or shows up at one time but doesn't really become practical until much later (like the steampowered novelties of Roman Alexandria that wouldn't see practical application until the late 18th century because steel was simply too expensive).

 

[SammyKhalifa]

This is the same tired excuse I always hear. First off, it doesn't excuse laziness. It's like how people use the word "decimated" as a synonym for devastated. In the case of the word "liberal", however, laziness has nearly ruined the word. It originally meant a person who prioritizes the rights of the individual and sees society as a collection of individuals (as opposed to conservatives who see society as a collection of families, or socialists who prioritize the rights/needs of the community). Once upon a time, these opinions were considered left wing. It was liberals who championed causes like womens' rights. But Americans use the term liberal and socialist interchangeably, and Americans use the term socialist when communist or statist would be more accurate. Calling a communist/statist a liberal is incredibly stupid and confusing. They are literal opposites. They are antonyms.

It's not an excuse--it's what happens. I'm guessing you'd have a hard time speaking to an English speaker from 500 years ago. Is that because language changes and meanings drift over time and distance, or because you're being lazy and using all of the words wrong?

Moderator Action: Back to topic, last warning. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think the biggest issue is that all of the early techs already existed--had already existed for thousands of years in most cases--when the game begins. I mean we often identify archaeological cultures by their pottery (Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, etc.). It would be an improvement just to skip over that first tier of research. Of course, there are plenty of problems remaining, like the fact that apprenticeship existed long before it shows up on the tech tree. Also a linear tree will always have problems, because while sometimes Technology A or Concept A is required to develop Technology B, just as often technology shows up when it does through sheer accident (cf. coffee not being exploited until the 17th century, even though the technology to brew coffee had existed for millennia) or shows up at one time but doesn't really become practical until much later (like the steampowered novelties of Roman Alexandria that wouldn't see practical application until the late 18th century because steel was simply too expensive).

To be clear, I don't think the game should 'skip' the first tier of the Tech Tree, but I do think that in certain specific situations some Civilizations could skip some of that Tier. After all, there were Civs that did not develop Pottery until after the nominal Start of Game, just as those without access to large bodies of water didn't bother with boat/sail technologies until later. Animal Husbandry, if you include dogs, dates back over 10,000 tears before Start of Game, but if there are no Large Animals as are depicted in game now (sheep, cattle, horses, etc) there really isn't much for the Animal Husbandry to do to affect the civilization.

So, in line with Differentiating Civs by the Map, I'd like that First City on the Coast not to just give a Bonus for Sailing, but from the start allow exploitation of the off-shore resources. The city with Flood Plains in the starting radius should have Pottery Immediately - after all, they've probably been squelching through the raw materials for a long time before the first wall of the city went up.

Nor is this idea of Terrain/Situation Differentiation limited to the first turns of the game. There were some real 'terrain/situation specifics' with real historical effect, that the game has never had in it. Two instances will do for now:
Early Chinese States had access to extremely finely grained clay - loess wind-blown soils - which, with the right kiln technology, allowed them to develop Porcelain centuries before anyone else could artificially grind and refine clay enough to do the same. The high-temperature kiln technology, in turn, allowed China to produce Cast Iron materials centuries before the rest of the world. The fine clay and lack of good stone meant they also developed 'rammed earth' construction, especially massive city (and Great) Walls from Classical Era on. These were impervious to early gunpowder cannon, so they also utterly failed to develop Bombards.
In India, deposits of extremely pure iron ore plus wind-driven bellows-enhanced smelters allowed them to develop real high-carbon Steel almost 1500 years before anyone else - Alexander the Great got a gift of 40 pounds of 'Wootz Steel' in the 4th century BCE but nobody in Europe could reliably reproduce it until the late Medieval Era.

So, what if there was one deposit of Wootz Iron on the map (or none, or more, depending on Map Size) - providing a Bonus/Eureka for developing Swordsmen and Knights, and perhaps giving your Swordsmen and Knights + X points of Combat Factor ('Damascus' blades were another Wootz Product).
What if some areas of Flood Plains produced the raw material for Porcelain instead of Pottery - and a Bonus for City Wall development independent of Masonry, and Ironworking?

Right now the map has general terrain/resources, Tribal Villages that provide Random Acts of Generosity (or Misplaced Generosity), and Natural Wonders. How about a new category of Resources that are Rare Resources - at least at the start of game. Wootz Steel and Porcelain, after all, were both overtaken by technological progress to the point where anyone anywhere could reproduce them, but for, essentially the first 3 Eras of the game they gave special Bonuses and abilities to a select few Civs that could access them.

Other possibilities are to make some of the 'standard' Resources start out Rare:
Cotton was only found in two places in the world originally
Silk Worms, Bitumin, (a factor in early reed boat building/waterproofing in Mesopotamia), Maize, Potato, Bison were all Resources that were relatively specific (maize, potato and silk were actually Man Made Resources, to be technical, but they were all specific to single or neighboring Civs originally) and had specific Results: Incan exploitation of high mountains and terraces was linked to the potato, forest plot agriculture by the Native Americans was a product of the maize-bean-squash Trinity of their agriculture, and Silk (and Porcelain) were two of China's major sources of trade revenue for centuries.

What I'm arguing for is more Variety in the Influences on the Civs from the map, and that the variety be reflected in the Eureka/Bonus System. These, I think, would in turn increase the number of decisions and development paths available even when replaying the same Civ on the same map type: the random nature of Resource/Rare Resource placement would make your every game a different experience and give yo different 'in-game' problems to solve.

 

[nzcamel]

I think the biggest issue is that all of the early techs already existed--had already existed for thousands of years in most cases--when the game begins. I mean we often identify archaeological cultures by their pottery (Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, etc.). It would be an improvement just to skip over that first tier of research. Of course, there are plenty of problems remaining, like the fact that apprenticeship existed long before it shows up on the tech tree. Also a linear tree will always have problems, because while sometimes Technology A or Concept A is required to develop Technology B, just as often technology shows up when it does through sheer accident (cf. coffee not being exploited until the 17th century, even though the technology to brew coffee had existed for millennia) or shows up at one time but doesn't really become practical until much later (like the steampowered novelties of Roman Alexandria that wouldn't see practical application until the late 18th century because steel was simply too expensive).

To be clear, I don't think the game should 'skip' the first tier of the Tech Tree, but I do think that in certain specific situations some Civilizations could skip some of that Tier. After all, there were Civs that did not develop Pottery until after the nominal Start of Game, just as those without access to large bodies of water didn't bother with boat/sail technologies until later. Animal Husbandry, if you include dogs, dates back over 10,000 tears before Start of Game, but if there are no Large Animals as are depicted in game now (sheep, cattle, horses, etc) there really isn't much for the Animal Husbandry to do to affect the civilization.

So, in line with Differentiating Civs by the Map, I'd like that First City on the Coast not to just give a Bonus for Sailing, but from the start allow exploitation of the off-shore resources. The city with Flood Plains in the starting radius should have Pottery Immediately - after all, they've probably been squelching through the raw materials for a long time before the first wall of the city went up.

Nor is this idea of Terrain/Situation Differentiation limited to the first turns of the game. There were some real 'terrain/situation specifics' with real historical effect, that the game has never had in it. Two instances will do for now:
Early Chinese States had access to extremely finely grained clay - loess wind-blown soils - which, with the right kiln technology, allowed them to develop Porcelain centuries before anyone else could artificially grind and refine clay enough to do the same. The high-temperature kiln technology, in turn, allowed China to produce Cast Iron materials centuries before the rest of the world. The fine clay and lack of good stone meant they also developed 'rammed earth' construction, especially massive city (and Great) Walls from Classical Era on. These were impervious to early gunpowder cannon, so they also utterly failed to develop Bombards.
In India, deposits of extremely pure iron ore plus wind-driven bellows-enhanced smelters allowed them to develop real high-carbon Steel almost 1500 years before anyone else - Alexander the Great got a gift of 40 pounds of 'Wootz Steel' in the 4th century BCE but nobody in Europe could reliably reproduce it until the late Medieval Era.

So, what if there was one deposit of Wootz Iron on the map (or none, or more, depending on Map Size) - providing a Bonus/Eureka for developing Swordsmen and Knights, and perhaps giving your Swordsmen and Knights + X points of Combat Factor ('Damascus' blades were another Wootz Product).
What if some areas of Flood Plains produced the raw material for Porcelain instead of Pottery - and a Bonus for City Wall development independent of Masonry, and Ironworking?

Right now the map has general terrain/resources, Tribal Villages that provide Random Acts of Generosity (or Misplaced Generosity), and Natural Wonders. How about a new category of Resources that are Rare Resources - at least at the start of game. Wootz Steel and Porcelain, after all, were both overtaken by technological progress to the point where anyone anywhere could reproduce them, but for, essentially the first 3 Eras of the game they gave special Bonuses and abilities to a select few Civs that could access them.

Other possibilities are to make some of the 'standard' Resources start out Rare:
Cotton was only found in two places in the world originally
Silk Worms, Bitumin, (a factor in early reed boat building/waterproofing in Mesopotamia), Maize, Potato, Bison were all Resources that were relatively specific (maize, potato and silk were actually Man Made Resources, to be technical, but they were all specific to single or neighboring Civs originally) and had specific Results: Incan exploitation of high mountains and terraces was linked to the potato, forest plot agriculture by the Native Americans was a product of the maize-bean-squash Trinity of their agriculture, and Silk (and Porcelain) were two of China's major sources of trade revenue for centuries.

What I'm arguing for is more Variety in the Influences on the Civs from the map, and that the variety be reflected in the Eureka/Bonus System. These, I think, would in turn increase the number of decisions and development paths available even when replaying the same Civ on the same map type: the random nature of Resource/Rare Resource placement would make your every game a different experience and give yo different 'in-game' problems to solve.

You could put the first tier of techs being presented the way they are in a similar category to 99% of units upgrading every other era. Historically accurate? ....meh.... Good for the gameplay, and close enough that it doesn't matter? Yep.
As a semi history simulator Civ cannot ditch it's linear tree; and (as Zaarin points out) that linear tree brings issues with it. People like the idea of SMAC's or other research trees; but they come from games which are completely sci-fi as they aren't rooted in our real past.

To me a worse example of inaccuracy re the tech tree that needs addressing sooner is something like the Aztec's UU being an ancient unit; while the Zulu's UU is Renaissance!

 

[Zaarin]

After all, there were Civs that did not develop Pottery until after the nominal Start of Game

...Who, exactly? Even the Paleoindians, the ancestors of the Cree, Aztec, and Mapuche, had pottery long before 4,000 BC.

Animal Husbandry, if you include dogs, dates back over 10,000 tears before Start of Game, but if there are no Large Animals as are depicted in game now (sheep, cattle, horses, etc) there really isn't much for the Animal Husbandry to do to affect the civilization.

I guess it depends on what we accept Animal Husbandry to represent. If it represents domestication in a literal sense, then once again all civs had it by 4,000 BC--dogs and perhaps bees had certainly been domesticated in the New World by that point, and in South America you can eventually add the llama, alpaca, etc. Even if we take it to refer to large draft animals, I think in fairness we have to include the dog here--it's carrying capacity is pretty limited, but historical Native Americans used it to pull travois (and sleds, where applicable), so I think we can assume their ancestors did, too.

The fine clay and lack of good stone meant they also developed 'rammed earth' construction

Same situation in Sumeria, which was essentially a bog.

What I'm arguing for is more Variety in the Influences on the Civs from the map, and that the variety be reflected in the Eureka/Bonus System. These, I think, would in turn increase the number of decisions and development paths available even when replaying the same Civ on the same map type: the random nature of Resource/Rare Resource placement would make your every game a different experience and give yo different 'in-game' problems to solve.

That would be phenomenal. Many powerful states have been built on temporary or long-lasting resource monopolies: Indian and Damscus steel, Chinese and Byzantine silk, Chinese porcelain, Tyrian transparent glass, Tyrian purple, Indian indigo, Egyptian cotton, Scandinavian narwhal horns, Siberian mammoth ivory, etc. It would be great to have some of these things reflected in the game. (Also, since you mentioned natural wonders, I really think we need more of them--not just more that could appear but more that do appear. Natural wonders really aren't that rare in real life.)

To me a worse example of inaccuracy re the tech tree that needs addressing sooner is something like the Aztec's UU being an ancient unit; while the Zulu's UU is Renaissance!

The biggest problem is that the Aztec don't map conveniently to European "ages." They had bronze working, but because they didn't utilize bronze weapons historians don't tend to consider them "bronze age." Yet their large, clean, sophisticated cities put contemporary European cities to shame, they had indoor plumbing and running water (so did some parts of Spain, thanks to al-Andalus, but otherwise this was rare in early Renaissance Europe), etc. This is again where the tech tree feels a bit Eurocentric. I'm not sure where exactly the Eagle Warrior belongs: it may have been Renaissance by the European timeline, but it certainly wasn't Renaissance by the European tech tree--Classical might be a better compromise, though. If UUs required resources, I'd say make it a Swordsman that doesn't require Iron, but...

 

[nzcamel]

The biggest problem is that the Aztec don't map conveniently to European "ages." They had bronze working, but because they didn't utilize bronze weapons historians don't tend to consider them "bronze age." Yet their large, clean, sophisticated cities put contemporary European cities to shame, they had indoor plumbing and running water (so did some parts of Spain, thanks to al-Andalus, but otherwise this was rare in early Renaissance Europe), etc. This is again where the tech tree feels a bit Eurocentric. I'm not sure where exactly the Eagle Warrior belongs: it may have been Renaissance by the European timeline, but it certainly wasn't Renaissance by the European tech tree--Classical might be a better compromise, though. If UUs required resources, I'd say make it a Swordsman that doesn't require Iron, but...

Oh totally agree. It's the placement of the Impi here (and potentially the Ngao Mbeba & the Malón Raider) that's more the issue imo. In past titles of Civ UU's tend to appear in an era that was suitable for the technology they wielded from a "progression" POV rather than the era they actually appeared in. This makes sense in a game where Civ's appear clearly defined in 4000 B.C.
But from V on there seems to have been a readjustment to place UU's in the era they existed in regardless of whether they were cutting edge at that time or not.

i.e. the Impi in IV replaces an ancient era unit. Whereas in V & VI it replaces a Renaissance era unit that was realistically superior to it. I think that the former way of doing it was fine for Civ given we're fine with Germany existing thousands of years before it did; and better for immersion. That's my preference, but I could live with the newer more jarring thing of putting UU's into the time frame in which they existed. It's just really weird that in VI they're doing both!

 

[Timothy001]

My 2 cents. Make everyone happy. Give us the option of seeing the start before choosing our civ. People would be able to use this option, or the way it currently is.

 

[nzcamel]

My 2 cents. Make everyone happy. Give us the option of seeing the start before choosing our civ. People would be able to use this option, or the way it currently is.

Except that some starts are more likely to be generated if you have chosen Civ X. So it'd more be you choose, and then have the option to choose a different Civ from the one you chose. Nah...just too messy I suspect.

 

[Zaarin]

Oh totally agree. It's the placement of the Impi here (and potentially the Ngao Mbeba & the Malón Raider) that's more the issue imo. In past titles of Civ UU's tend to appear in an era that was suitable for the technology they wielded from a "progression" POV rather than the era they actually appeared in. This makes sense in a game where Civ's appear clearly defined in 4000 B.C.
But from V on there seems to have been a readjustment to place UU's in the era they existed in regardless of whether they were cutting edge at that time or not.

i.e. the Impi in IV replaces an ancient era unit. Whereas in V & VI it replaces a Renaissance era unit that was realistically superior to it. I think that the former way of doing it was fine for Civ given we're fine with Germany existing thousands of years before it did; and better for immersion. That's my preference, but I could live with the newer more jarring thing of putting UU's into the time frame in which they existed. It's just really weird that in VI they're doing both!

Well, the Mapuche Malón Raider is a gunpowder unit, so it makes sense to appear in the Renaissance. It was thematic enough and fit the general idea that the Mapuche use their enemies' tactics against them. If they wanted something more indigenous, perhaps they could have gone with a Bolas Thrower as a Slinger replacement--but who wants a unique Slinger, given I assume most people upgrade to Archers ASAP?

 

[noto2]

Except that some starts are more likely to be generated if you have chosen Civ X. So it'd more be you choose, and then have the option to choose a different Civ from the one you chose. Nah...just too messy I suspect.

I'd also like the option to disable Eurekas/inspirations.

So it seems that most people think they are a good addition to the game, so I am in the minority... once again. Why do I dislike this new mechanic? I suppose I don't feel that it adds more options for me, I feel that it stifles me. I feel like the game is telling me I have 3 or 4 early game strategies I can use, instead of 12 or 50. Maybe I want to build an army of slingers and fight barbarians, or maybe I don't. But I don't want to be building a few units and buildings here and there and going through functions to get tech boosts. I might like the system more if it were a lot more streamlined, as in, there were, say, 12 eurekas and inspirations in the whole game, like quests, and they were major undertakings, there's no way you could complete all of them, so you'd pick which ones you wanted to complete that game, and it would be different from one game to the next. Right now I feel like the eureka/inspiration system is just routine, it's part of moving up the tech/culture tree, and I'll be repeating mostly the same tasks over and over again from one game to the next.

That said, I've barely played this game at all and actually only played one game to completion, so perhaps my opinion will change. Still, I'd like to play without eurekas/inspirations first, get the hang of everything else in the game, and then add them and see if I like it.

Anyone care to recommend any "Let's play" channels on Youtube?

 

[nzcamel]

I suppose I don't feel that it adds more options for me, I feel that it stifles me. I feel like the game is telling me I have 3 or 4 early game strategies I can use, instead of 12 or 50. Maybe I want to build an army of slingers and fight barbarians, or maybe I don't. But I don't want to be building a few units and buildings here and there and going through functions to get tech boosts.

You don't have to get all of them. I suspect I get too many of them for optimal play. If your best move is doing something that will prevent you from gaining an inspiration or eureka, then do that instead.

 

[Victoria]

but who wants a unique Slinger, given I assume most people upgrade to Archers ASAP?

If it has a range of 2 it’s not as silly as it sounds given the chopping mechanic.

 

[acluewithout]

@noto2 I really recommend thegamemechanic on Twitch. He also has some good - but old - videos on youtube. He’s a solid player, good early game, good chat, but you’ll find there are a lot of more sophisticated strategies on these forums that he (all really all the youtubers) don’t do.

Once you get the hang of things, check out Civtrader6. Really strong player. Very good chat.

 

[noto2]

@noto2 I really recommend thegamemechanic on Twitch. He also has some good - but old - videos on youtube. He’s a solid player, good early game, good chat, but you’ll find there are a lot of more sophisticated strategies on these forums that he (all really all the youtubers) don’t do.

Once you get the hang of things, check out Civtrader6. Really strong player. Very good chat.

Thanks, I'll check them out

 

[WillowBrook]

Late to the party here, but I'll add my two cents:

I like them.

I think I'd like them better if they varied from game to game, so I'm going to try infixo's mod.

I might prefer 2-3 smaller ones for each tech/civic in the same game. I would have one boost be a different tech or civic, essentially making that be an optional pre-req that gives 10-20% of the cost (I think IV had something like this built into the tree for some techs). But it would be set up to be impossible to get all of these boosts. And one or two additional boosts would provide an additional 10-20% each.

(I would also like to see up to ~30% of the cost covered by other civs' completion of the tech - e.g., if there are five other civs, you get 6% of the cost when each civs gets a particular tech. Perhaps there's a delay (10 turns?) after each discovery before the benefit is given to other civs. Perhaps you need to share a border or share a trade route. Lots of possibilities.)

 

[Zaarin]

If it has a range of 2 it’s not as silly as it sounds given the chopping mechanic.

Fair, but realistically I'm almost positive that a bolas has a shorter range than a sling...I'd probably give it higher damage and a chance to stun the enemy.