Do we really need more features?

[jesperben]

Hi,
I am very thankful for the impressing work done on this project, a big Thank You to all involved.

What could improve this game even more?

For my part, I don't really need more features. Of course I could be surprised by the ideas from you, but at this point, I don't miss features. There are a lot of ressources, crops, commodities, units, professions, buildings, founding fathers, markets and what else, and it's close to confusion - especially for new players.

Then what would I like to be improved?

- The messaging system. Especially in war it is very confusing to try to follow the AI-actions after you end your turn. The screen jumps around the world, alarms sounds, messages are written on the screen - and none of these are synchronized. Important and not so important messages are mixed in strange ways, so after a lot of information about the financial situation of your taverns and the graduation of one of your settlers, you suddenly find out, that one of your settlements has been razed.

- Graphics/looks. You get used to it, but of course they are very old. It would be amazing to play the game with contemporary graphics.

- The king. The idea is fine, but I always find his many appearances tedious and repetitive. The function need a good execution (which I don't have an idea for).

Just my thoughts, I will follow your work and look forward to a new version.

 

[raystuttgart]

For my part, I don't really need more features.

For every new feature, we are asking community.
If there is no clear majority that wants it, it will not be implemented.

We are not planning to completely change the gameplay and atmosphere of the mod.
We do consider quite carfully everything we add or change.

By the way:
Most of the stuff that was done or is already planned are not completely new features.
Most of it is overhauls / enhancements / improvements of existing ones.
The "big game changers" (e.g. Techs) are still in discussion / concept phase.

- The messaging system.

We are planning to improve it, but it takes time.
Somebody needs to be motivated to work on it and motivation can not be forced.

- Graphics/looks. You get used to it, but of course they are very old. It would be amazing to play the game with contemporary graphics.

Well, this is an old game with an old graphic engine.
We pretty much created the best graphics we could - using the engine provided.

Recreating all the graphics to futher improve them is basically futile and unrealistic.

• It is not even possible to create much better graphics (e.g. for Units).
• It is way too much effort and would take way too much time.
  
• We would not have the team members with required skills and motivation to do it.

The only thing we might still be able to improve is Screens (City Screen and Europe Screen).
And maybe some other minor aspects e.g. Buttons and other 2D graphis.
See here

- The king.

I do not understand. What is the problem?

 

[jesperben]

Hi Ray, thank you for the comment.

I hope that my message didn't sounded like criticism, because that was not my intention, on the contrary I'm very satisfied with the game and your work.

My wishes was just inputs from a user without knowledge about programming. I fully understand that it is not possible to make the graphics of an old engine look like new.

About the king: Just as in the original game, I've never found much fun in his many appearances with tax hikes. I understand the dynamics of the impact on our relationships, but I always just kiss his ring and move on until the end. Maybe my own way of playing could be improved on this part.

Again, thank you for your efforts.

 

[Swarbs]

I agree about the king and tax hikes. The pop ups offering soldiers, specialists etc are fine, but the tax and gold requests are just repetitive and quite boring after a while. There doesn't seem to be enough of an impact of acceptance and rejection to justify any real thought on the part of the player.

In general I think it would be nice to make the king's requests a bit more dynamic, so he asks for / demands stuff in response to player actions and behaves differently at different times, rather than just being 'gimme gimme gimme' every few turns. A few ideas:

- Temporary market closure. If you sell lots of a specific good to Europe, the king may decide you are undercutting domestic competition and thus closes the European and African markets for that item temporarily (10-20 turns) unless you give him a big donation or accept a tax rise. Makes the player consider Port Royal as a destination for goods other than those captured by pirates, and the balance between keeping your gold and keeping your market.
- Navigation Acts. King passes a law to close off domestic markets to foreign competition in order to protect against other colonies, but you have to make a contribution to this. Pay a large sum (5,000 or so) to see a big but temporary boost to the value of goods you sell in Europe.
- King indebted after wars. Wars were often the main reason for tax rises. Kings in Europe can go into wars periodically, and after the war they are in debt and need to pay off their military. So they offer to sell you soldiers at a high price, but these soldiers are removed from the king's forces (reduces the expeditionary force)

The king can keep demanding gold and raising taxes alongside these types of events, but it makes the king pop up a bit more interesting. "What's he going to say this time?" rather than "[sigh] How much does he ****ing want now?". Also more of an incentive to keep hold of some gold, rather than "If I hold on to 10,000 gold, the king will pop up in two turns and demand half of it".

 

[raystuttgart]

... nice to make the king's requests a bit more dynamic, so he asks for / demands stuff in response to player actions and behaves differently at different times, rather than just being 'gimme gimme gimme' every few turns. A few ideas:
...

Basically each of these ideas is a feature (DLL-Diplo-Event) of its own.
(Or implementing a completely new "King Request System" with more XML configurable variation - which is also lots of effort.)

Yes it might make the game a bit more varied and intersting.
But it is definitely not just a tiny change you are requesting, it is heavy effort to create all these variations in DLL-Diplomacy-Dialogues.

Some of the effects you are requesting are also not realistic because of either too much effort or unnecessary negative impacts on performance in logic of base Systems (like Europe) or too risky because it could break other base Systems (like automated Trade Routes) which are called all the time.

We can not that simply deactivate base Systems temporarily - without performance impact or heavy risks of bugs and side effects:
(The logic for these base Systems will always check if the "temporary conditions" are fulfilled - every time it is called.)

• Europe (which also affects a dozen of other base Systems - e.g. Automated Trade Routes)
  
• REF-Calculation of King (it calculates "required troops" vs. "acquired troops" and adjusts if needed)
  
• Domestic Market (which is going to e.g. affect Health, Happiness, ...)
  
• ...

So the effects we could and would implement would be much simpler / less risky.

And if we are talking about one time DLL-Diplo-Events I will also not implement them (myself).
The effort is way too big for a single one time DLL-Diplo-Event (that does not occur several times a game).

The tax increases (and to a lesser degree even the gold requests) however will still need to be there.
They are basically the core game play element to have an incentive / a reason to finally declare WOI.
(Technically they are also used for calculating the size of "REF Forces" of the King.)

 

[raystuttgart]

Just a general comment about "Do we need more features?":

No, we would not need more features.
The mod plays well as it is.

But it is also not really the question for me.
The important questions for me are:

• "Do we want more features?".
• "Which features do we want?"
• "Is it realistic that we also implement them?"

That is actually what I am trying to find out with the polls in the feature threads.
As I said, only the features that community really wants (and are realistic) will be implemented.

 

[Nightinggale]

- The messaging system. Especially in war it is very confusing to try to follow the AI-actions after you end your turn. The screen jumps around the world, alarms sounds, messages are written on the screen - and none of these are synchronized. Important and not so important messages are mixed in strange ways, so after a lot of information about the financial situation of your taverns and the graduation of one of your settlers, you suddenly find out, that one of your settlements has been razed.

I fully agree that the message system is bad. It's just a queue of messages, which will appear in the same order as they enter the queue regardless of importance. However what do you want to do instead? It's easy to say something isn't good enough, but it's actually rather tricky to figure out what to do instead to make it better.

 

[jesperben]

I fully agree that the message system is bad. It's just a queue of messages, which will appear in the same order as they enter the queue regardless of importance. However what do you want to do instead? It's easy to say something isn't good enough, but it's actually rather tricky to figure out what to do instead to make it better.

I must note that I have no experience in programing or modding. But I would like to make some points - I don't know it they are of any use. These are based in a perfect world, I an well aware that the underlying software limits what can be done ot it can be way to hard to do.

Separation in one area at a time. First informations about battles, raids, enemy warnings and the like. Then things like builidng decisions, education choices, converts. Then purely informational items like your tavern has produced this much money.

Steady screen. Show the actions in the first battle and let finish, then hesitate for a period before showing the next battle in another corner of your colony. Or maybe just make the program pause for a little time to let the player understand what is happening. Go through all the important events in this way.

Similarity. When the screen shows an event like a battle, let the written messages about this event be shown at the same time. Also let the alarmsound appear at the same time.

(Maybe get rid of the mandatory decisions at the start of a new turn. Civ VI and others have done it. So you don't have to choose a profession for your student at a specific time, you can do it at any time in this turn, but it must be completed before you can end the turn - like building choices or trade route-decisions in Civ VI. This give me a more relaxed way of playing.)

Just my thougts.

 

[raystuttgart]

Separation in one area at a time. First informations about battles, raids, enemy warnings and the like. Then things like builidng decisions, education choices, converts. Then purely informational items like your tavern has produced this much money.

We could e.g. collect and sort the list of text messages by priorities - then display them most important messages first.
(We could also try to pop-up a new window where you can scroll the list of messages or directly close it.)

But this affects only the text messages.
It will not affect the actual corresponding graphical events and effects on the map.

Steady screen. Show the actions in the first battle and let finish, then hesitate for a period before showing the next battle in another corner of your colony. Or maybe just make the program pause for a little time to let the player understand what is happening. Go through all the important events in this way.

Not possible - we would halt / break AI logic that way.

Similarity. When the screen shows an event like a battle, let the written messages about this event be shown at the same time. Also let the alarmsound appear at the same time.

Not possible - we would halt / break AI logic that way.

Maybe get rid of the mandatory decisions at the start of a new turn. Civ VI and others have done it.

Not possible - we can not simply recode the complete game.

----

Please understand:

This game is not a modern game.

It is a really old engine and we can not mess with it without huge efforts, serious risks and side effects.
We can not transform this game magically into a modern game with a modern engine.

We are just modders and not programmers of a new game with a new engine.
We have a lot of possibilities - but at some point things get unrealistic considering efforts and risks.

----

We could invest months of work to give it a try and further months of work for fixing the bugs we introduced.
But is it really worth it?
Does the current message system really make this game unplayable?

----
Summary:

The only thing that is still realistic and little risk is this here:
(copy from above)

... collect and sort the list of text messages by priorities - then display them most important messages first ...
(or as a separate pop-up)

 

[Nightinggale]

Maybe get rid of the mandatory decisions at the start of a new turn. Civ VI and others have done it.

Not possible - we can not simply recode the complete game.

Not completely impossible, but it would likely require more work than I'm willing to put into it. The main problem is our most valuable resource is time. Each time a feature is coded, the time it takes to make is taken away from making something else. This means even if a feature is nice to have, we have to consider if it is worth more than the other tasks we will then not have time to code.

 

[raystuttgart]

Not completely impossible, but it would likely require more work than I'm willing to put into it.

That is what I wanted to say.
The effort is simply unrealistic and the risks are too big.

I simply refuse to spend months in recoding a working system just to find out in the end that I completely broke the game or usability for players.
And I would not even want to have it in the mod if somebody else coded it, because I would be too worried of unnecessary bugs being introduced - without real benefit for gameplay, performance or stability.

Seriously, let us not mess with base systems for tiny annoyances like that.
We know that modern games with modern engines can do things better - but this game is not a modern game.

My Personal Summary:
There is currently nothing wrong with those "mandatory decisions" (e.g. what Building to build next in a City or which Profession to choose when Education is finished) - they are important.
The efforts and risks to change the system for that are simply not justified and not all players might like the "new system" we create.

@jesperben
This is nothing against your personal opinion.
However, I have a reall problem with changing working base systems unnecessarily.

 

[Swarbs]

So the effects we could and would implement would be much simpler / less risky.

And if we are talking about one time DLL-Diplo-Events I will also not implement them (myself).
The effort is way too big for a single one time DLL-Diplo-Event (that does not occur several times a game).

The tax increases (and to a lesser degree even the gold requests) however will still need to be there.
They are basically the core game play element to have an incentive / a reason to finally declare WOI.
(Technically they are also used for calculating the size of "REF Forces" of the King.)

This all sounds fine to me - my suggestions were just ideas around what you be interesting, I have no idea what is possible and how difficult it would be!

The main aim would be to break away from 90% of interactions with the king being gold and taxes, and to have some more interesting options. Things like the "King indebted after war" event could be changed to reduce the REF calculation level, so fewer troops are added rather than troops being taken away.

Any new events can definitely happen several times a game. There are probably 20-30 king tax and gold interactions in a standard game, so quite a few of those could be replaced with new options and you'd still have a lot of gold and tax events.

 

[raystuttgart]

Generally it is very much possible to add more DLL-Diplo-Events.
(It is about a full weekend of effort for each new one added - basically a small new feature each. So it should be an event that can trigger a couple of times a game.)

But as I said, the current ones for "tax increases" and "gold requests" are needed and I will not mess with the logic that triggers them or the logic of their effects because it can have unwanted side effects for balancing.

They are simply too important for Systems like "Tax Rate" and "REF". - Which are fundamental pillars of the game balancing.
By removing or reducing their rate, I would affect balancing for endgame (WOI).

It is really the actual tax increase and the actual gold transfer and the actual attitude of the King that affect REF and WOI - with other factors (e.g. your Military) included as well.
(Again, all of this is needed for balancing REF and WOI. It is difficult to understand or know, without knowing the DLL logic of REF calculation though.)

So we would not be speaking of replacing DLL-Diplo-Events for "tax increases" or "gold requests".
I can offer you though to maybe add 1 or 2 additional ones of other King Requests with different effects.

I am not sure though if that is what you want.

 

[jesperben]

Thank you for your comments. I fully understand, that this is not a priority if it demands huge efforts. As I mentioned, my ideas was just from "A perfect world"-point of view and only meant for inspiration.

 

[raystuttgart]

Thank you for your comments.

No problem, people from community ask and we answer.

As I mentioned, my ideas was just from "A perfect world"-point of view and only meant for inspiration.

Well, I understand that.

The point is simply that this is not a "perfect game" with a "perfect engine" - but sometimes players do not seem to understand that.
It has limitations and messing with the given order of game flow is one of the most dangerous things you can do as a modder.

For us modders players sometimes simply seem to be complaining about tiniest details we can not even change.
Expectations like "modern graphics and engine" are simply unrealistic and thus such discussions get a bit frustrating for us.

See, people like us have put many years of modding into a project for an old game and then somebody shows up and says:
"Modern games like Civ6 have much better graphics and much better game flow" ... we know that.
(But they have many huge drawbacks for modders and thus mod-creation as well.)

We are not angry at you.
You need to understand though how such comments feel for us.

By the way:
In your Game-Settings you can simply deactivate "Display of AI Actions".
The game would then simply not show them and your screen would not be jumping.

 

[Swarbs]

It is really the actual tax increase and the actual gold transfer and the actual attitude of the King that affect REF and WOI - with other factors (e.g. your Military) included as well.
(Again, all of this is needed for balancing REF and WOI. It is difficult to understand or know, without knowing the DLL logic of REF calculation though.)

So we would not be speaking of replacing DLL-Diplo-Events for "tax increases" or "gold requests"

Ok, that sounds reasonable and we don't want to mess with balance. I suppose my one question to that would be how easy would it be to, for example, double the size of all requests and reduce their frequency by half? So instead of the King doing, for example, 20 tax requests in a game of between 2-4%, could he make 10 tax requests in a game of 4-8%? So the overall actual tax increase is the same, it just comes in bigger chunks.

My reasoning is that if the total tax increase that the king asks for can be maintained over the course of the game, but consolidated into fewer events, then that would make more scope to add interesting events into the longer gaps between tax requests. Otherwise additional diplo events will only add to the volume of king interactions, which might make the problem worse.

Of course I understand if the balancing isn't that easy, so this is just a request! The king is a bit annoying and repetitive, but definitely not a major game breaking problem.

 

[Nightinggale]

For us modders players sometimes simply seem to be complaining about tiniest details we can not even change.
Expectations like "modern graphics and engine" are simply unrealistic and thus such discussions get a bit frustrating for us.

I don't view the discussions as the most frustrating part. It's far more frustrating not to be able to fix the issues themselves. I don't really mind the discussions or proposals as long as people understand that "outside ideas" can be very much hit or miss regarding what can be done relative to the existing code or game engine. This means the frustrating part is mainly if a "no, not really possible" statement is ignored or disagreed with. Disagreements should be based on technical insight rather than "but I really wish it's like that instead".

In other words feel free to propose whatever you want, but be prepared for rejections because sometimes implementing what seems similar just isn't similar, not even if it has been done in another game.

 

[Schmiddie]

Just my 5 cent regarding graphics: Some of our current ones might be a little bit dowdy but definitely not all of them and ingame they look as good as in Civ 5 and 6. Furthermore I assume most of us love these graphics. And guess what - the graphics of Civ 5 and 6 aren't that good as well. They only seem to be better because the engine might be different. I have exported some of the graphics from Civ 5 and was very eager to make them ready for Civ 4. But they look not as good as expected. They are not very detailed, have a rough model mesh and the paintings are so small that you cannot change something with good results. To be honest if you put some effort into a new Civ 4 graphic it looks better than a Civ 5 graphic.

Of course this is only applicable for units. Landscape could be much better but this would require a lot of efforts.