Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
DOCTRINE: Simulationism
- Thread starter Symphony D.
- Start date
flyingchicken
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2007
- Messages
- 3,783
For me, the difference between whatever it is at the opposite end of the spectrum and a Simulationist game goes like this:
GAMEMASTER: Alright, the game will be a medieval fantasy dungeon crawl.
PLAYER: I want my Barbarian to have Quick Draw (Pistol) and start with a Colt Python.
GAMEMASTER: That's so cool! Okay, you can have that.
PLAYER: Yay!
GAMEMASTER: Alright, the game will be a medieval fantasy dungeon crawl.
PLAYER: I want my Barbarian to have Quick Draw (Pistol) and start with a Colt Python.
GAMEMASTER: Inappropriate!
PLAYER: Awww man!
GAMEMASTER: Alright, the game will be a medieval fantasy dungeon crawl.
PLAYER: I want my Barbarian to have Quick Draw (Pistol) and start with a Colt Python.
GAMEMASTER: That's so cool! Okay, you can have that.
PLAYER: Yay!
GAMEMASTER: Alright, the game will be a medieval fantasy dungeon crawl.
PLAYER: I want my Barbarian to have Quick Draw (Pistol) and start with a Colt Python.
GAMEMASTER: Inappropriate!
PLAYER: Awww man!
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
True anything can never be attained becase when you turn something into a concept with predefined rules it becomes some lofty ideal that remains out of touch with reality.
Here is my little spiel on the very idea of simulationism, particularly in regards to the moderators responsiblity. In order for a simulationist NES to really work the MOD must give more of a time commitment that is normally neccessary. That would mean responding to PMs, ooc and IC diplo quickly and efficiently. In this regard i must put much emphasis. If a mod wishes to provide a simulation of a world, then he must also provide the support for said NES to the fullest.
Also a full disclosure clause should be added into the NES which would force the player to forward all PMs between players to the mod. This may seem absurd, however in order for the mod to provide the simulation that he desires, the players actions should be completely transparent. However this offers a unique problem, that the mod must maintain ignorance about certain players dealings while interacting to others and additionally, secret dealings must be incorperated into the update in a way which does not betray the full intent of the actions.
An example of this would be this.
What actually happened:- "America is trying to secretly create a race of super-manbearpigs (or bearpigmans)
What was posted in the update (or would be given to players if they inquire):- "In recent months, strange disappearences of bears and pigs have been reported"
Silly example but I think it conveys the point. The world does see hints of "secret" projects that governments conduct. However the exact details are left unknown, unless an opposing nation puts funds into trying to find it out.
Here is my little spiel on the very idea of simulationism, particularly in regards to the moderators responsiblity. In order for a simulationist NES to really work the MOD must give more of a time commitment that is normally neccessary. That would mean responding to PMs, ooc and IC diplo quickly and efficiently. In this regard i must put much emphasis. If a mod wishes to provide a simulation of a world, then he must also provide the support for said NES to the fullest.
Also a full disclosure clause should be added into the NES which would force the player to forward all PMs between players to the mod. This may seem absurd, however in order for the mod to provide the simulation that he desires, the players actions should be completely transparent. However this offers a unique problem, that the mod must maintain ignorance about certain players dealings while interacting to others and additionally, secret dealings must be incorperated into the update in a way which does not betray the full intent of the actions.
An example of this would be this.
What actually happened:- "America is trying to secretly create a race of super-manbearpigs (or bearpigmans)
What was posted in the update (or would be given to players if they inquire):- "In recent months, strange disappearences of bears and pigs have been reported"
Silly example but I think it conveys the point. The world does see hints of "secret" projects that governments conduct. However the exact details are left unknown, unless an opposing nation puts funds into trying to find it out.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
The problem with you symphony is you think your opinion is superior to others and should be accepted as fact. I could have waltzed in here and just said "opinion - doesn't matter", but nothing productive would have come from it. I think you need to learn to be more open-minded and stop strutting around like you know everything/have the best answers. You're one of if not the most pretentious people in all of NESing.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
It's not absurd, its in keeping with your simulationist ideal. In order to simulate a world properly you need to have said transparency. I really dont see how police-state or Big Brother, has anything to do with what I said O.o Like I said, all PMs, not all methods of communication, that would be an absurd amount of information to process. Secret alliances or deals between nations need to be brought to the moderators fullknowledge.
Also I think that IC diplomacy (non-secret) should be incoorperated into Updates. Most of the really exciting moments in NESing are from those heated debates between nations, or word plays and threats. This, however, never seems to get into the Update, unless the diplomacy is followed by action that is worthy of "update status".
Also I think that IC diplomacy (non-secret) should be incoorperated into Updates. Most of the really exciting moments in NESing are from those heated debates between nations, or word plays and threats. This, however, never seems to get into the Update, unless the diplomacy is followed by action that is worthy of "update status".
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
I agree everything is relative to everyone. I dislike certain things others enjoy and vice versa. My opinion on a matter is different from yours. But the difference between you and me is my opinion is open to correction and change, yours is set in stone which makes it no different than a young earth creationist or jihadi. Everyone better bow down to your opinion or get out the way. Love it or leave it. There is no discussion with a fundamentalist, and thats what you make yourself out to be. Fundamentalism is inherently flawed regardless of context. Fundamentalism breeds anger and hate, and I will make no secret both are emotions I am feeling towards you right now. And its not because you espouse different opinions than my own, but that you are so unflinchingly certain that you are right and have no regard for the opinions of others. You won't even discuss your opinions, just state them.
We are all different, but we are all imperfect. Only through communications can we hope to remove these imperfections by combining the best aspects of ourselves with the best aspects of other people. The same can be said of ideas and opinions, yours and mine included.
On a separate, but similar note: What NESes have you modded, and what NESes have you played in? I ask simply because I do not remember seeing you mod one, and I don't remember ever seeing you play in one, at least not the ones I played in.
We are all different, but we are all imperfect. Only through communications can we hope to remove these imperfections by combining the best aspects of ourselves with the best aspects of other people. The same can be said of ideas and opinions, yours and mine included.
On a separate, but similar note: What NESes have you modded, and what NESes have you played in? I ask simply because I do not remember seeing you mod one, and I don't remember ever seeing you play in one, at least not the ones I played in.
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
This right here is the antithesis to the original form of NESing. I cite as an example the original Return to our Roots, which were in no way simulationist but focused on large player freedom. I have called this format "countries messing around." It is not necessarily the best form but it is to a large degree the original. To trounce in late to the party and proclaim that the way things were done traditionally is the wrong way is both a fallacious argument and extremely arrogant. NES may not be Civilization but, Civilization gave the inspiration. The very notion that you know what NES is and every other idea of NESing is wrong is on it's face extremely false. You cannot redefine NESing unilaterally as being your cherished "simulationism" because it's not. The sooner you learn to cope with the idea that there is a duality to everything and that nothing here is absolute the better, because the narrow definition you provide ignores tradition and the very multilateral tradition of NESing.
I suppose, in short, that it strikes me as painfully ironic that the roots of NESing are in actuality false NESing. It's akin to saying that the Declaration of American Independence is the product of "fake America."
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
That really is silly Symphony, why would a NESer not forward PMs. Yes it is an honor system, there is nothing wrong with that because the individual has nothing to lose by forwarding the information to the Mod. You have yet to point out what's wrong with the suggestion of full disclosure, albiet the name is decieving. It would be full disclosure as it pertains to this forum, hence only PMs would be involved. No one will seriously go out of their way to not allow the mod full knowledge of their actions.
You have yet to provide the "down-side" of full disclosure as it pertains to creating a more realistic world. Implimenting it would not in any way harm the quality of a NES. Do you see my point?
EDIT:- I think you all are missing the point here. Symphony is NOT saying "this is what NESing is or should be". He is presenting the doctrine of the Simulationist NESer as he perceives it. That being said, as it pertains to the doctrine, I think he should actually consider other peoples opinons as to what simulationism actually is.
You have yet to provide the "down-side" of full disclosure as it pertains to creating a more realistic world. Implimenting it would not in any way harm the quality of a NES. Do you see my point?
EDIT:- I think you all are missing the point here. Symphony is NOT saying "this is what NESing is or should be". He is presenting the doctrine of the Simulationist NESer as he perceives it. That being said, as it pertains to the doctrine, I think he should actually consider other peoples opinons as to what simulationism actually is.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Well, considering that said version of America participated heavily in human slavery and withheld the right to vote from women, I don't think that's too strange a point to make.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
I disagree but w/e
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Is Simulationism my personal philosophy for how I would run a NES? Not exactly. Do I have respect for moderators that can pull it off? Sure. Would I play their games? Yes.
In the end, a NES could be Storyist, Simulationist, or anything in between. If it's competently moderated with consistent updates, that being the most difficult part, it will succeed. Having an internally consistent philosophy is a good theoretical basis for how you want your NES to run, but if you don't do the updates, it's a moot point.
In the end, a NES could be Storyist, Simulationist, or anything in between. If it's competently moderated with consistent updates, that being the most difficult part, it will succeed. Having an internally consistent philosophy is a good theoretical basis for how you want your NES to run, but if you don't do the updates, it's a moot point.
Sheep
Orange Shrooms!
No offense but its things like this that I am completely against.... Not only does it seek to restrict the FUN tht NESING was supposed to be, but also seeks to impose a series of concepts developed by one or a handful of people on the majority that wish to just have that fun.
The saying 'simple is best' sometimes is overlooked in this world, which is a real shame in my own eyes. While it is admirable to try and create a nes such as this, why a Mod would want to spend three days to update a complext 'simulationist' nes is beyond me... I have tried it and have found that before too long it doesnt work.
While the whole doctrine issue is a form of straighjacketing in my eyes, I know before we even get started that we will have to end up agreeing to disagree, as I know not everyone feels the same way in regards to them.
Me I am just going to continue doing what I have always done with nesing in the past.... Having fun, and not getting to caught up in the whole 'theory side' of what is essentially something to do to pass the time.
The saying 'simple is best' sometimes is overlooked in this world, which is a real shame in my own eyes. While it is admirable to try and create a nes such as this, why a Mod would want to spend three days to update a complext 'simulationist' nes is beyond me... I have tried it and have found that before too long it doesnt work.
While the whole doctrine issue is a form of straighjacketing in my eyes, I know before we even get started that we will have to end up agreeing to disagree, as I know not everyone feels the same way in regards to them.
Me I am just going to continue doing what I have always done with nesing in the past.... Having fun, and not getting to caught up in the whole 'theory side' of what is essentially something to do to pass the time.
Amon Savag
The Great
Crezth is the blowhard here? I seriously died when I saw this comment.
Hear hear! Simple is best, that's been my mission ever since I returned.. To bring the new school NESers the joy of the good ol' days. Hence we have mrtor and motherhen.
NES was made as a way for everyone involved to have fun. Some things just can't be simulated in a NES. Since there's no way to simulate perfection, and really no dedicated enough mods to try (Glares at BigMouth SmallAction D), it really is a waste to even ponder about it.
And there's no reason to play in a NES which is simply a simulation of real life, because let's face it... We as players are going to impliment policy that aren't realistic. Then the mod gets involved and either mod-blocks, or ruins the player's country because of it. Then the player says "Hey, that could too happen!" and you say "Well it doesn't" and the player ends up quitting. It would be alot easier, and funner for the players involved, if the player just got his way. It is his country and his NES. We as Mods should do just that, moderate. Not play the roll of "god", which simulationism requires.
Oh yes... And let's not forget that no NES that verges on the simulationist extreme ever lives very long, because it's such a chore for the mod to come up with a solution to every non-realistic policy that comes up, let alone the stats and trying to simulate realism into that, and all this other crap that adds to the junk a simulationist mod would have to do. What's the fun in playing in a NES that lasts for 3 updates? 3 updates that you couldn't even do as you wanted in your country because the mod wanted to simulate total realism?
I'd like to A. see an extreme simulationist SUCCESS, and B. see you mod one Bigmouth Smallaction D.
Sheep
Orange Shrooms!
I hardly ever say this, but I agree with amon 100%.
Sheep
Orange Shrooms!
Oh and in addition, contary to what things like this try to tell you
THERE IS NO WRONG OR RIGHT WAY TO PLAY A NES.... THE ONLY REQUIRMENT IS TO HAVE FUN!
The use of the word doctrine, or to even have the tenacity to write one up, is getting me more and more pissed off about it the more I think about it.... Perhaps 'suggestions on how to create a particular type of nes' would of been more wise Symph.
THERE IS NO WRONG OR RIGHT WAY TO PLAY A NES.... THE ONLY REQUIRMENT IS TO HAVE FUN!
The use of the word doctrine, or to even have the tenacity to write one up, is getting me more and more pissed off about it the more I think about it.... Perhaps 'suggestions on how to create a particular type of nes' would of been more wise Symph.
