Does AI vassalize too quickly?

[suedenim]

I've noticed in my games that the AI countries seem to voluntarily vassalize themselves to be much more readily than in regular BtS. As soon as I get Feudalism, it seems 2-3 guys are lined up to join me.

The odd thing is, they're also not always the ones I'd expect (i.e., weak powers in bad positions and/or at war.) One, the Kuriotates, were actually the guys I thought my most likely threat (albeit backwards compared to my Khazad dwarves.)

Is it just my imagination, or are they "giving up" way too quickly?

 

[Tarquelne]

I've noticed in my games that the AI countries seem to voluntarily vassalize themselves to be much more readily than in regular BtS. As soon as I get Feudalism, it seems 2-3 guys are lined up to join me.

I agree with you, they vassalize too easily. (With the Calabim I often go for Feudalism early and it can really take the fun out of being evil when other civs _want_ to join you. Where's the terror? Where's, I ask, is the sacking and pillaging?)

And back in your original thread in the modmod forum I point out what mod to change it. You were right the first time.

 

[Ksi]

I hate it when I try to play deity and then they all just vassalize to the largest AI.

 

[Ringtailed]

I dunno, I don't think I've ever had an AI voluntarily vassalize itself to me. Capitulation sure, but not voluntary. I've seen the AIs vassalize each other though. I don't know if that was voluntary or not.

 

[A_Hamster]

I've noticed in my games that the AI countries seem to voluntarily vassalize themselves to be much more readily than in regular BtS. As soon as I get Feudalism, it seems 2-3 guys are lined up to join me.

The odd thing is, they're also not always the ones I'd expect (i.e., weak powers in bad positions and/or at war.) One, the Kuriotates, were actually the guys I thought my most likely threat (albeit backwards compared to my Khazad dwarves.)

Is it just my imagination, or are they "giving up" way too quickly?

Agreed. I'm only on my second game of FFH, but even before the wars start, the AI civs start begging for vassalage, and I haven't even hurt them yet. In a regular game of Civ, I've often wanted to keep someone as a vassal, but they'd rather go down fighting instead becoming a vassal.

It's also strange that the Calabrim or Sheaim will offer themselves as a vassal to the Elohim or Arendel to the Svartalfar. Excuse me? Mortal enemies with completely opposed value systems?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying FFH, but all these vassalage offers do seem strange compared to AI behavior in standard Civ.

 

[suedenim]

I have occasionally gotten strange vassal offers in regular Civ, but there's usually some plausible reason behind it (e.g., unlike capitulation, which ends *all* wars of the vassal, voluntary vassalization drags the master into the wars of the vassal.)

 

[Fenboy]

My latest game has gone kind of wierd in this way. I'm playing as Bannor, and wanted to get the Kuriotates as vassals. Only trouble is, they've pledged themselves to the Calabim. They are still a Good, Order-following civ, but they are Calabim vassals....Okay so I beat the snot out of the Calabim, enough for Cardith to break his vassalage, but he won't join me, as he's afraid of the guy I'm fighting (who only has two cities left by this point). I finish off the Calabim, only to get a mass Doviello-Clan-Balseraph invasion as a world war kicks off. I manage to beat them, and turn back to the Kuriotates, only to find they've vassalised themselves again...to the INFERNALS! Aargh! Still Good, still Order, but vassals to Hyborem.

 

[WCH]

In my games I've found that there generally very quickly develop extreme power imbalances... two civs (me and one of the AIs) get huge, and everyone else lags. Before too long, all of the "everyone else" has chosen sides.

 

[Arctem]

In my games I've found that there generally very quickly develop extreme power imbalances... two civs (me and one of the AIs) get huge, and everyone else lags. Before too long, all of the "everyone else" has chosen sides.

I actually think it makes sense for this to happen. Just look at our own history in the Cold War. Everyone either gathered behind NATO or the Warsaw Pact. Similarly, in WWII, there were a bunch of Axis nations that barely anyone hears about, simply because they all gathered behind Germany, Italy, and Japan, same with the Allies.

 

[Tarquelne]

I actually think it makes sense for this to happen.

I suspect that's the thinking behind the current settings. A huge face-off between Good and Evil is a big part of the story, and easily -accreting power blocks encourages it. The Veil and Order switching a civ all the way to Evil or Good feeds into that.

OTOH, you have the leader's religious attitudes that aren't as strong as the story implies they should be. IIRC the devs. have said that's done for replayability purposes.

But I don't think the games are as fun with the given settings, so I change them. Easy enough to do. If there seems to be a call for it I might post a file that places less emphasis on replayability and huge-power blocks.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Since I can't see the demographic chart before the end of the game I don't know for sure if others offering to be vassals are weak enough for it to make sense, but several were definitely weaker. I'd rather they give up than I have to spend 20 turns building ships or walking across the world to fight them when I know I'll win. It could be the unfinished AI that doesn't do well when they get a bad start, so a few empires always end up at the low end.

 

[micmc]

I suspect that's the thinking behind the current settings. A huge face-off between Good and Evil is a big part of the story, and easily -accreting power blocks encourages it. The Veil and Order switching a civ all the way to Evil or Good feeds into that.

OTOH, you have the leader's religious attitudes that aren't as strong as the story implies they should be. IIRC the devs. have said that's done for replayability purposes.

But I don't think the games are as fun with the given settings, so I change them. Easy enough to do. If there seems to be a call for it I might post a file that places less emphasis on replayability and huge-power blocks.

yes please do post where you change them, I've been looking but then I get distracted learning (something else) new. On easier settings it's a little frustratiing to finnaly get up to a warfooting, cross the pond and have them all give up when I make a beachhead.

 

[Tarquelne]

yes please do post where you change them,

MOD DIRECTORY/Assets/XML/Civilizations/CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml

The tags are:
VassalRefuseAttitudeThreshold
VassalPowerModifier
FreedomAppreciation

For religious attitude it's:
ReligionWeightModifiers

Here's an example:

Spoiler :

           <ReligionWeightModifiers>
                 <ReligionWeightModifier>
                    <ReligionType>RELIGION_OCTOPUS_OVERLORDS</ReligionType>
                    <iWeightModifier>-5</iWeightModifier>
                 </ReligionWeightModifier>
                 <ReligionWeightModifier>
                    <ReligionType>RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORPH</ReligionType>
                    <iWeightModifier>5</iWeightModifier>
                 </ReligionWeightModifier>
                 <ReligionWeightModifier>
                    <ReligionType>RELIGION_THE_ASHEN_VEIL</ReligionType>
                    <iWeightModifier>-20</iWeightModifier>
                 </ReligionWeightModifier>
                 <ReligionWeightModifier>
                    <ReligionType>RELIGION_THE_EMPYREAN</ReligionType>
                    <iWeightModifier>-5</iWeightModifier>
                 </ReligionWeightModifier>
                 <ReligionWeightModifier>
                    <ReligionType>RELIGION_THE_ORDER</ReligionType>
                    <iWeightModifier>-15</iWeightModifier>
                 </ReligionWeightModifier>
            </ReligionWeightModifiers>

The thread on this in the modmods, maps and scenarios forum more discussion and a file to try.