Does representation take into account of existing cities?

[Cromagnus]

"Each city you found will increase the culture Culture cost of policies by 33% less than normal."

Does this only affect cities you found *after* you get this policy? Or does it "retroactively" affect your existing cities?

Also, this 33% less is a little misleading. The base additional cost from each city is 16%. 33% less means that the city contributes ~11%. So, if you have 4 cities, the cost of each policy goes from +48% to +33%, or a net reduction of 16%.

But, my question remains? If you take Representation when you already have 4 cities, are you still at +48% after taking it? Or +33%? (I know my math might be slightly off)

 

[Crafty Bison]

Haven't gone through the code, but from my games I have looked and am pretty sure it's for existing cities as well as those founded after the SP is taken. Don't know what it does to the capital though - would guess it leaves as standard but haven't run the numbers. Of course, only acts on future policies.

 

[Browd]

Representation does take into account your existing cities, but there is no reduction attributable to your first settled city. There was some disagreement on this point in another thread about OCC culture games, so I decided to test it. Here was my report:

"Loaded the GOTM 44 save, built a monument, opened Liberty and hit next turn until I was able to take a third policy. If you take Representation as your third policy, your fourth policy will cost 90 culture. If you take any other random policy as your third, your fourth policy will cost ... 90 culture. You get the Golden Age from Representation, but no policy cost reduction, in an OCC game."

 

[Cromagnus]

So, for a three city game it reduces the extra cost from +33% to +22%. For a 4-city game, it reduces the extra cost from +48% to +33%. But only for policies you get *after* you take it. So the earlier you take it the better. It doesn't like retroactively adjust the price you've paid.

So, similar to Religious Tolerance, this is something you want to take ASAP even in a 3 or 4 city game. It's even better than Religious Tolerance, since, with 3 cities, it's a 11% reduction, as compared to 10%. With 4 cities, it's 16%, which might make it higher priority than RT.

Hmmmm. This is making me rethink completing Tradition prior to entering Liberty and piety.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Also, does anyone know how the bottom of piety/cristo redentor work with this?
e.g. 4 cities, base is +48%, with liberty is +33%, would piety work additively (like combat modifiers) then make it a +(33-10)%=+23%? Or would it be multiplicative (like hapiness modifiers), a 133%*0.9 =+19.7%? In the second case, how would piety and cristo redentor work together? Would they stack both in a multiplicative manner (like hapiness), or would they stack in an additive way and then act together in a multiplicative manner (like CS influence)?

 

[Cromagnus]

Also, does anyone know how the bottom of piety/cristo redentor work with this?
e.g. 4 cities, base is +48%, with liberty is +33%, would piety work additively (like combat modifiers) then make it a +(33-10)%=+23%? Or would it be multiplicative (like hapiness modifiers), a 133%*0.9 =+19.7%? In the second case, how would piety and cristo redentor work together? Would they stack both in a multiplicative manner (like hapiness), or would they stack in an additive way and then act together in a multiplicative manner (like CS influence)?

I'll try to remember to test part of that tonight when I get home from work. I'm just about to get CR in a game, assuming I don't get distracted trying to fight off the Celts.

 

[chazzycat]

IMO now that collective rule is delayed, beelining representation is the best strategy for most liberty starts.

 

[Smirk]

Each policy has an absolute cost based on cities. The earlier you take it the less you'll pay over the entire game. The best time would be right before you settle a second city. But you could also potentially pay the same after settling your second city if you get it with the Oracle before gaining the policy thru culture. If you hard culture to it with more than one city you paid too much.

 

[JTWuest]

IMO now that collective rule is delayed, beelining representation is the best strategy for most liberty starts.

Whenever I do that I grumble to myself about delaying the free settler

 

[Socrates99]

Whenever I do that I grumble to myself about delaying the free settler

I know what you mean. More often than not that free settler is my third or fourth city anymore.

 

[kamex]

Does this mean I can settle before unlocking Representation and still get the reduction for the cities already settled minus the first - instead of rushing representation?

 

[Browd]

Yes, but any policies you take after settling the additional city(ies) before Representation is taken will be at the higher cost. You don't get any sort of policy cost "rebate" when you do take Representation.

 

[budweiser]

Does anybody have the numbers for taking rep as soon as your second city drops vs no rep with 2 cities?

At only three policies in, you can get rep pretty fast and time it with an early settler build.

 

[Cromagnus]

Yes, but any policies you take after settling the additional city(ies) before Representation is taken will be at the higher cost. You don't get any sort of policy cost "rebate" when you do take Representation.

Despite that, I think it's wrong to enter any other tree before finishing Tradition. Nothing matters as much as growth. The early policies are cheap in the grand scheme of things, so what you actually save with earlier Religious Tolerance and Representation isn't as much as you what you lose. Early growth = science/gold/production, which means getting amphitheaters earlier, artist slots earlier, better military earlier, and most of all, it means getting to the Industrial Era and Freedom earlier, which pays huge dividends.

That's why, in my mind, it's always better in a cultural game to complete Tradition before thinking about Liberty. The free aqueducts are such a powerful thing. Growth = Science = Freedom = the best cultural victory policies.

It is arguable that in the right map, you would benefit from opening Patronage before completing Tradition, because allying with several CS early gives a tremendous growth and culture advantage, but that requires an extreme amount of luck: Getting just the right quests at the right time to have 3-4 allies early, and then holding on to them long enough for Patronage to make it semi-permanent... (until the AI has tons of spies)

Speaking of luck: You might as well start over if you don't get a culture ruin. It means you get Landed Elite and the aqueducts earlier, and that matters a lot. At a minimum, it saves 20 turns. At 1 culture/turn in the beginning, 20 culture = 20 turns saved! (Unless you skip scout to build monument first. Hah. I just can't see ever doing that)

In reality it saves much more than 20 turns, because it means getting the cost reduction policies earlier, the growth benefits earlier, etc!

I'd estimate it saves an additional 10 turns (so 30 total) by the end-game because of the significant policy cost reduction of getting both Representation and Religious Tolerance 20 turns earlier for a larger percent of the time you have multiple cities.

But this is only true if you use that early culture to emphasize growth. Here's why: The less policies you choose before the Industrial Era, the better. Therefore, you want to use your policies to maximize growth, because that maximizes science.

Even though this means you'll be paying an exorbitant rate for policies for most of the game, the acceleration that comes from completing the Freedom tree earlier is the biggest factor in policy acquisition imho.

The real question, in my mind, is: Do you stop at 3 or 4 cities? I'm not sure yet. I feel like 4 *really* slows down things because you have to buy/build that last settler and it slows down all the national wonders. I guess if you get lucky and there's still a nice spot for that 4th city when you complete Liberty in the mid-to-late game, you could plant it... but that just seems like a losing proposition..

 

[Cromagnus]

Does anybody have the numbers for taking rep as soon as your second city drops vs no rep with 2 cities?

At only three policies in, you can get rep pretty fast and time it with an early settler build.

I don't think it's feasible in most circumstances to get representation by the time your second city drops. You should have a second (and third) city by turn 40. Even with a culture ruin, you'd be hard-pressed to have Representation by then, since the Liberty tree only grants 1 culture/turn. In fact, you'd actually get Representation at roughly the same turn if you opened Tradition first, because that 3/turn makes a huge difference.

The costs (for one city) are 25, 45, 90, 160, 245, 345, 465, 595, 745. Unless you're France or the Aztecs, or you get a culture ruin, you get Representation at around turn 70. Regardless, going this route would slow your growth so much I just don't think it's worth it. With Tradition you typically get one additional policy before you drop your second city than if you start with Liberty. You pay more for the ones you get after you plant more cities, but since you started out ahead, it basically evens out, as long as you take Representation right after completing Tradition.

Assuming no ruin, turns 1-20 are 1/turn. Then you get a monument. So on turn 22 you get Liberty. 45/3 = 15 turns. So you get Citizenship at turn 38. You get Representation at turn 68. With a culture ruin you could get it at turn 48. With a Cultural CS ally as well, you could get it even earlier.

But, it's not worth it. With Tradition, you're getting more culture, earlier. When you finally plant that second and third city, you've been getting +2 culture for 15 turns, putting you one Policy ahead. Your monuments are free... you just bought a settler so you can't afford to buy two monuments, so now you're +6 culture ahead. Even if it's your first build, you're looking at 15 turns minimum before you have monuments. (Assuming you can afford to build them before archers/shrines/etc)

With France, it's a bit different. Those extra cities you plop down give bonus culture, so it evens out a bit. But I still think it's not worth it even with a culture ruin.

NOTE: This math is totally off the top of my head. It might be wrong

Turn 1-2: 3 culture/turn
Turn 3: +20 from ruin opens Liberty.
Turn 3-14: 4 culture/turn
Turn 15: Choose citizenship
Turn 15-20: 4 culture/turn
Turn 20: Monument is finished
Turn 21-32: 6 culture/turn
Turn 32: Choose Representation.
Turn 32-40: 6 culture/turn
Turn 40: Plant two cities
Turn 40+ (10 culture/turn)

You'd be hard-pressed to get a settler planted faster than turn 32 while rushing towards Representation. But I still wouldn't do this. I'd much rather have the growth bonus from Landed Elite.

From a pure cost perspective, if you found 2 additional cities right when you take Monarchy, it takes 3440 culture to finish Tradition before opening Liberty and taking Representation. If you take Representation before opening Tradition, and found 2 cities shortly after Representation, it takes 3165 culture to get to the same point.

So, in sum total we're only talking about an extra 275 culture total. That may seem like a lot, but remember that by the end-game, you'll be generating 800/turn. It's a drop in the bucket, less than half a turn of culture! It's definitely important to take Representation as early as possible, of course, but compared with what you lose growth-wise, it's not worth taking it before Tradition is completed. And this is with France, the Civ that benefits the most from starting with Representation. This is all IMHO.. your mileage may vary.

And in practice, I think it's actually slower in the long run to open with Representation, because Landed Elite frees up one artist slot. 1 Aqueduct frees up one artist slot. You get more culture over the first 70 turns or so and plant landmarks earlier. More science. More production. More gold. Better defense.

Tradition wins.

 

[budweiser]

OK. Here is Babylon. The first map I drew so its suboptimal.

t1 - 1 cpt
t8 - Monument - 3 cpt
t13 - 1st pick (25) Trad - 6
t18 - 2nd pick (30) Lib - 7
t19 - GS set to research D+P @32 turns settle GS > 14 turns
t26 - a settler is done
t27 - 3rd pick worker
t29 - settle on a luxury, make a monument 8cpt
t33 - D+P is in but cant use it yet
t42 - 4th pick Legalism 16 (+3) cpt - 5th pick (rep in 10 turns)

I'lll post a screen shot in a minute.

 

[budweiser]

Here is a screenshot.

 

[Cromagnus]

OK. Here is Babylon. The first map I drew so its suboptimal.

t1 - 1 cpt
t8 - Monument - 3 cpt
t13 - 1st pick (25) Trad - 6
t18 - 2nd pick (30) Lib - 7
t19 - GS set to research D+P @32 turns settle GS > 14 turns
t26 - a settler is done
t27 - 3rd pick worker
t29 - settle on a luxury, make a monument 8cpt
t33 - D+P is in but cant use it yet
t42 - 4th pick Legalism 16 (+3) cpt - 5th pick (rep in 10 turns)

I'lll post a screen shot in a minute.

Ok, but this wasn't on Deity, right?

a) You have the second highest score.
b) You can't afford to not build a scout or at least a second warrior, preferably both.
c) You're getting Policies faster than expected, probably due to low difficulty level?

Also, getting Drama and Poetry that early is pretty civilization-specific...

Edit: Hmm, I'm thinking those numbers I found for policy costs were from vanilla, or from before a patch or something. They don't seem right. I'm just going to do a comparative test in game. It was a cool site, with a big spreadsheet for all policy costs by number of cities, but meh, I think it was wrong.

Ok, yeah, that spreadsheet was jacked. The costs are 25,30,60,105,170,255 for one city. (To complete one branch)

Then it's 355,475,and 615.

 

[budweiser]

The level doesnt really matter, my moves arent affected by the difficulty. That was on Emperor, because for illustration purposes, I didnt want to have to worry about defense too much. Theres a scout on the map someplace.

Thanks for the numbers, but we need the costs of 2, 3, and 4 cities to make a better judgement.

I still think for the absolute lowest culture costs, its best to time representation with the founding of city 2. It will also give a GA for another small culture boost. I'll do more testing later.

Later...

Here we have France in the valley of salt and marble. What a special place!

t0 move to hill
t1 settle 3cpt (monument, scout, scout)
t9 6cpt, first pick Liberty
t14 pick worker
t24 3rd pick, but cant take rep yet the settler isnt done. Open Tradition. 9cpt (need 105)
t29 settler is done
t34 2nd city - purchase a monument 14cpt
t37 Rep Golden Age 16cpt
t47 Legalism
t48 Great Library > Drama & Poetry 24cpt (+3)

 

[Cromagnus]

The level doesnt really matter, my moves arent affected by the difficulty. That was on Emperor, because for illustration purposes, I didnt want to have to worry about defense too much. Theres a scout on the map someplace.

Thanks for the numbers, but we need the costs of 2, 3, and 4 cities to make a better judgement.

I still think for the absolute lowest culture costs, its best to time representation with the founding of city 2. It will also give a GA for another small culture boost. I'll do more testing later.

Edit: Saying your moves aren't affected by difficulty is just weird. You can't build the Great Library on Deity. You can't afford to build the monument before the scout. You can't afford to not have that +50% city ranged attack strength when the early DoW comes at you. I dunno.

Also, I found my second and third cities at almost exactly the same time. The first settler comes out and I buy one at roughly that same time.

Here are the costs for all the various combos:

Two cities after Representation, then open and finish Tradition:
25,30,60,115,185,280,390,525,680

Three cities after Representation, then open and finish Tradition:
25,30,60,125,205,305,425,570,740

Three cities after the Tradition opener and Representation, then finish Tradition:
25,30,60,105,205,305,425,570,740

2 cities after Monarchy, finishing Tradition then Liberty to Representation:
25,30,60,120,195,290,410,550,710

3 cities after Monarchy, finishing Tradition then Liberty to Representation:
25,30,60,135,220,330,465,620,800

In all cases you end up with Representation and all of Tradition finished. Here are the total culture costs:

1 city: 2090 culture
2 cities after beelining Representation: 2290
3 cities after beelining Representation: 2485
3 cities after Tradition opener then Representation: 2465
2 cities after Monarchy, finishing tradition then Liberty to Representation: 2390
3 cities after Monarchy, finishing tradition then Liberty to Representation: 2685

Ignoring the OCC case for now, it's an extra 200 culture to finish tradition before opening liberty with 3 cities, and an extra 100 culture to finish tradition first with 2 cities. The case of going with the tradition opener then Representation, then finishing tradition is a tiny bit cheaper.

The thing is, and I think this is important... Getting Legalism earlier is a bunch of extra culture from the two free monuments. The free part is also important. Getting Monarchy earlier is more happiness to grow. Getting Landed Elite earlier is more growth. Getting free aqueducts earlier is more growth. More growth = more artist slots, more tech, more defense, more money and more production, plus it's easier to build wonders. Just the free monuments alone is 4 culture/turn until you have time to build them. Even if you built them right away, that's 40 culture. If you waited at all, it's more like 80-100 culture lost. I think the free Golden Age offsets this a bit, but that comes before you have significant culture generation. It's probably better to wait until later to use it.

I still maintain that even though it might take a few extra turns to complete these 9 policies by beelining through Tradition, those aqueducts are huge. They essentially amount to -40% on your growth times, which is the same as +66% food. (6/10 time to grow inverted is 10/6 growth)

The impact of getting those aqueducts 20-30 turns earlier... I think it outweighs the loss. However, that's probably the most debatable point. Monarchy is huge. Landed Elite is huge. Finishing Tradition before opening Representation is another matter though. Aqueducts 20-30 turns earlier means probably 2 or 3 extra pop in each city. Most importantly, you can plant artists sooner without impeding growth. (4 excess food/turn with aqueducts = 6 excess food/turn without aqueducts)

It will delay that 9th policy by a few turns at least. However, the extra tech from the extra growth means reaching the Industrial Era earlier, which means getting the Freedom bonuses earlier. This to me is the clincher. Extra production/tech/money/growth/defense = survival on Deity.

However, I am tempted to try it the other way now, just to see how it feels.