Does Stalin really belong in the game?

[Grimz101]

This thread is still alive ?!

 

[Antilogic]

So... in another 100 years, when all those who remember Stalin are dead, along with anyone who could have heard their stories firsthand - will his presence in Civ XXVI be ok?

I mean, I'm sure anyone who lived through Genghis Khan, or Montezuma, would find them equally objectionable.

I've noticed that the base game produced by Firaxis tries to stay away from sticky "modern" situations, with the notable exception of WW2. It's like a history class in middle school or high school--you start to see some of the bad stuff, but for some reason everything after 1945 gets a glossed-over one week treatment that doesn't tell you anything useful.

Frankly, I think it is a good idea. Why do you need another WW2 leader anyway? We have so many for a game with so few animated leaderheads.

 

[Noxium]

Placing Stalin into a game is blasphemy!

Lone Wolf, I thing you are not right. In 1920s Stalin destroyed chirchs becouse Lenin say it, but in last 20 year He did not do it. Lenin lives in jewish family, and simple he do not understand power and wisdom of Orthodox Chirch. (Sorry, but I do not know English well)

 

[Cethegus]

I bet you could find a lot of players who could do without those two for reasons that have nothing to do with real life .

How many "world-class" leaders lead their real country like it's a game? Or how many of them attack small neighboring nations just for land, oppress their own people just to serve the state and how many of them influence a far greater number of people during time of peace negatively in comparison to Hitler's "hellish" reign?

Although Stalin led USSR to its best after his rise to power, he did using whatever means possible. I don't think his poor planning and Hitler-like personality (with proper preparations, Finland would have been ass-raped in the Winter War) should be forgotten just because he was on the winning side and his atrocities included only his "own" people. After all, he killed at least just as many people as Hitler did and led a country with government just as rotten as Hitler's was. While I'm from Finland, I don't oppose the idea of including Stalin in the game because our grandparents had to defend our homeland against him; I oppose him because he deserves no better place than as a scenario-restricted leaderhead. If Stalin gets to be in the whole game, Hitler deserves to be at least in the WW2 scenario.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I do wonder why I was quoted for that, though. I mean, I wasn't even talking about Stalin, I was talking about a certain other pair of leaders that tend to ruin a decidedly larger % of rookie players' games.

Stalin reigned a lot longer for a more "successful" empire. I don't care if Hitler is in or not (or anyone for that matter), though I can see some reasoning for a differentiation.

 

[Wodan]

I think the test of a leader is
1) how many things did he do because political forces in his nation made him do it
2) how many things did he do because international forces made him do it
3) how many things did he do because of his own beliefs/convictions, despite internal and/or international forces

It's just as important why you do something as it is what you did.

 

[Roller123]

Ok,
we're talking about REAL Stalin now aren't we?

No, we are talking about Stalins deeds being not radically different from other leaders to omit him from the game.

And for those countless killed granpas&granmas in not so common Europea democracy in 1939, as Finland was, and the effects it has to this day

Just like many other poor souls here you are mixing personal feelings and ruling a country. They have nothing in common. One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. Funny, thats a quote by Stalin. He started a war with a country where you live. I understand that. But look at other leaders, they all did start wars and send their soldiers to die and, OMG, kill ppl. Nothing extraordinary here, thats an eat or be eaten world we are living in. Wake up already. And Stalin is probably one with the least wars on that list. Whats with this hate ppl. Remember, its just business, nothing personal. Unlike Hitler, who did make an extermination of the jews a personal thing of his, and killed them for no other reason but being jews. And started a global, so far the most bloody war in the history of the mankind.


Oh and:

The Finnish famine of 1866–1868 killed 15 percent of the population, making it one the last famines in European history.

That was Stalin killing off Finns.

The Great Famine documents a period of Irish history between 1845 and 1852 during which time the population of Ireland was reduced by 20 to 25 percent

And that was Stalin spreading communism in Ireland.

 

[averagejoe]

I think they should keep Stalin in and put Hitler in. Its a historical type game.
You can pick your good or bad view of history but you cant say Hitler wasnt important to that historical era. I could see Gestapo effecting your citizens if you want to be a dictator but at the same time i dont think they should or would ever let the holocaust in. But then again we can nuke citys just like
Hiroshima and i dont see any complaints.


But if they let Hitler in then they should also have the nation of Israel. It may not be as important as Rome and England on history but it did influence 2 religions.Arabia, judism, christianity is in the game.

 

[Roller123]

You can pick your good or bad view of history but you cant say Hitler wasnt important to that historical era.

He certainly left a lasting impression, so did Beatles. But was he also a Great Leader? Why do you want him in the game. Because he supported race segregation and killed several millions of jews? Because he lead Germany to a loss in war? Or started the most bloody war in history. Or maybe the germans want him in the game?(They dont) Huh. Which trait of the above do you think the germans want to represent their nation the most.

And unlike wild crack pipes dreams of some ppl stating Stalin starved to death 35 million black ukrainians for fun, the above points are proven.

 

[Roller123]

a world-class leader, which all mass-murderers & dictators who attack small democratic neighbours are never.

Or how many of them attack small neighboring nations just for land, oppress their own people just to serve the state and how many of them influence a far greater number of people during time of peace negatively in comparison to Hitler's "hellish" reign?

Wow just wow. What is this with Finnland. Full of innocent children. Just about everyone attacks neighbors for land, especially small ones, noone cares about. How do you thing smaller countries are becoming larger countries. By playing with Barby dolls? And yes, MURDERING, you heard me, others. Just what do you think weapons are made for, and what do you think USA does right now in Iraq and Afghanistan.. Just about everyone puts his own people on forced work. Ever heard of prison labor? My god.. Not sure i get the last one with the influence, but im certain its just as amusing as the first both. Small democratic neighbors. Thats just killing me. And attacking a bigger, nondemocratic country which is not a neighbor is perfectly fine eh. Why im not surprised.

 

[havuoksa]

Wow just wow. What is this with Finnland. Full of innocent children. Just about everyone attacks neighbors for land, especially small ones, noone cares about. How do you thing smaller countries are becoming larger countries. By playing with Barby dolls? And yes, MURDERING, you heard me, others. Just what do you think weapons are made for, and what do you think USA does right now in Iraq and Afghanistan.. Just about everyone puts his own people on forced work. Ever heard of prison labor? My god.. Not sure i get the last one with the influence, but im certain its just as amusing as the first both. Small democratic neighbors. Thats just killing me. And attacking a bigger, nondemocratic country which is not a neighbor is perfectly fine eh. Why im not surprised.

Wow just wow.

This is why this should not be a political arena.

 

[Roller123]

Wow just wow.

This is why this should not be a political arena.

Why. Do you feel offended? Well the source for that lies not in what i said, but is in internal contradiction you are just experiencing. Human history is not a barbie world but is a continuous war with rivers full of blood. Oh and:

Finland: Ruled by Sweden (1249 - 1809), Ruled by Russia (1809 - 1917)

Doesnt seem they particularly cared either, for a small democratic neighbor. Why do you declare specifically Stalin for being evil im not sure. He behaved exactly as others and exactly as expected from a world-class leader. Namely busy gaining power for his country.

 

[averagejoe]

He certainly left a lasting impression, so did Beatles. But was he also a Great Leader? Why do you want him in the game. Because he supported race segregation and killed several millions of jews? Because he lead Germany to a loss in war? Or started the most bloody war in history. Or maybe the germans want him in the game?(They dont) Huh. Which trait of the above do you think the germans want to represent their nation the most.

And unlike wild crack pipes dreams of some ppl stating Stalin starved to death 35 million black ukrainians for fun, the above points are proven.

I wouldnt say i want Hitler in the game but rather if your gonna have Stalin
& other leaders who werent always good people you should have Hitler too. I didnt say put race segregation in the game in the game. Hitler does seem to have had some traits to be a challenge in the game and some not so good. As for his military leadership im not sure how to rate him. Invading Russia seems like a very poor decision although Napoleon did the same thing.


I will be just fine without Hitler in the game but you cant denie history by ignoring Hitler existed. I think there should be more leaders in the game whether good or bad. Would anybody have a problem with American Presidents that were slave owners?


Again im not saying put segragation in the game but by your point we shouldnt have Hitler in a WW2 game because of what he did. That would be absurd as you cant have a WW2 game without Hitler. Like Star Wars without Darth Vader. I may not like George Bush but i cant denie he had an impact on the world for the last 8 years.

I guess im just saying i would like more leaders since civilizations sometimes
change according to their leaders and well some people could get revenge on Hitler in a way.

 

[Roller123]

averagejoe
I cannot disagree, Hitler is in important person in history. But i think thats not the decisive cause for selecting world leaders for Civ4, but what they have done for their country. And Hitler just did mostly nothing positive for Germany(with exceptions). And also he killed people. Heh. Its easy to blame the losing side in committing atrocities, just as easy as to forget atrocities of the winning side, like Dresden.

Technically there is no WW2 in Civ, or any other real world major event, so including their participants is not a necessity, what do you think.

 

[Wodan]

I will be just fine without Hitler in the game but you cant denie history by ignoring Hitler existed.

Omitting him from an entertainment game where you can roleplay Hitler himself is a far cry from "denying history".

Anyway no matter what people say about CIV, the laws in Germany aren't going to be changed as a result. So, the choice for Firaxis is simply ignore them and suffer the consequences, or omit Hitler from the default game. (Note that he IS available in some good mods.) We can hardly blame Firaxis for choosing the latter.

 

[Antilogic]

Why is there so much focus on WW2? We have Roosevelt, Churchill, de Gaulle, Stalin, and Mao, all from that era already. People clamor for Franco, Hirohito, and Hitler like there is no tomorrow.

Why don't I pick another major conflict in history...say, the 30 Years War, and demand another 5 world leaders from this period. Let's add Charles V for the HRE, Gustav II for the Scandinavians (or maybe add a new civ separating Denmark from Sweden and getting Christian IV), maybe Ferdinand II and Maximillian I for Germany, Louis XIII for France (no, Louis XIV isn't good enough, we need another), James I or Charles I for England (we could use a Colonization LH), and on and on...

Is anybody still interested? If so, I'd encourage you to sign on and make a mod. For the main game, we are trying to represent 6,000 years of history. Out of that six millenia, surely we can pick leaders from a wide range of periods and not give WW2 20% of the leaders, when that conflict lasted not more than 6 years (an amazing fraction of a percent of the time represented in the game).

Long story short: read the last line of Roller123's post. You don't have to include every participant of WW2 or any other major war in human history.

 

[Rorybob]

The only problem I have with your argument is that the only Russian leader that rivals his famousness is Lenin, who was worse, much worse.

 

[havuoksa]

Dear Mr./Ms. Roller123, (anybody else not interested on reading corrections to his/her mails, please skip this one!)

As I said in all posts, this is not a political forum, but since I did make a mistake for telling my opinion on "Staling being a world-class leader" (again:NOT commenting if he should be in the game or not), I might as well write once more. As fruitless as this is, when going to the level of not even reading or caring to read what I did write, or for that matter, on comments like:

"Just about everyone attacks neighbors for land, especially small ones, noone cares about"
->I'm very sorry on being born to a small country no-one cares about. Quite a few did actually in 1939 though.

"you are mixing personal feelings and ruling a country. They have nothing in common."
-> Oh yeah? Feel, say, Nelson Mandela didn't mix any personal feelings to his apartheid-ruling country after 30 years in jail? Or the countless ones Stalin sent to Siberia to die who were not as lucky as Nelson boy&his family?

"Unlike Hitler, who did make an extermination of the jews a personal thing of his, and killed them for no other reason but being jews."
->This is where you truly master your TOTAL ignorance of anything that happened, pheew! He did EXACTLY what Hitler did, killing people exactly for the reason for being born to circumstances they did not choose. I truly hope nobody from former Eastern Europe has to read that bs! IF you're American, this is what makes my American friends blush. Another side of the globe doesn't mean to read just a little before posting. Jesus!

"The Finnish famine of 1866–1868 killed 15 percent of the population - a deed by Stalin"
-> laughing & mocking on these kinds of this is nothing more than sad.

Yes I do feel offended on your comments that say f*off to everything my tiny sorry-ass country has ever stood for, while you "laugh". It's just that at some point in your life you do have to choose what you stand for, is it the enslaving horror-state state run by a man who's suffering of both severe paranoia and psychopathia, as acknowledged by all psychologists. Or is it the "barbie-doll" democracy you keep so much mocking - if that makes you think that this democracy is a perfect world, I don't know where you got that from. But you do seem to get lots of things from somewhere nobody has said nothing about (USA in Iraq&Afghanistan - who said one word of USA nor of what do I think of those wars??).

On larger scale, whatever makes you happy, so in the end we're both glad that you got so much of those laughs you said you were laughing on my small democratic comments, right? It's just that ultra-cynicism that's irritating, mostly because the easiness of it.

And on your bigboys-worshipping mind, would even that matter on your ideas of this incredible "World-class leader", that he and his super-army was supposed to have a victory parade on his birthday (Dec18) in Helsinki. I think they had moved some 30km or so on that point with tremendous losses, so even on your point of you, are you 100% sure Stalin was such a World-class Leader? I don't share your world-view, and do feel that you have the right to say you are against calling any 'genocider' a world-class leader.

My real point, from this point on, I only talk of THE GAME, and I think this is the only point we can agree on Roller123, that we're both happy that way right? I understand the OP that the question RELATES to the game, but still, this forum should be about, the game.
I won't make the same mistake again.

Thank you & peace.

 

[Supr49er]

Welcome to the Forums Rorybob.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Exactly 7 months later and we are still arguing!