Does the AI have a financial advantage

[rickmc]

I have started to notice game after game and AI after AI that their seems to be a AI financial advantage.

By 0AD, I usually have 3-4 (maybe 5 if a warmonger a capital city) cities and I am running a slight positive in cash flow at 90-100% science. During my warmongering, numerous AIs have 5, 6, and even 7 cities. Some of these cities are in bad locations (low resources or kept small by other culture boundaries). The land area around these cities are not well developed except their 1st and usually 2nd city. Checking their tech level via trade offers, I can see that they are not doing any special financial tech beelines but also that they are not significantly behind me (so they arent running at like 30% science).

How can the AI support more towns than I can?

 

[Beamup]

They likely have more cottages, and hence more money.

Always remember, 30% of 100 is still bigger than 100% of 20. You can't judge research speed purely by the science rate. The total amount of commerce is equally important.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

What level are you playing at. Keep in mind that anything above Noble the AI will get advantages over you, like lower tech costs.

 

[rickmc]

They likely have more cottages, and hence more money.

Always remember, 30% of 100 is still bigger than 100% of 20. You can't judge research speed purely by the science rate. The total amount of commerce is equally important.

I dont believe that is the case. Besides the AI capital and maybe city 2, the rest usually lack significant upgrading. also some of the cities are in horrible positions with little to no resources that can generate +1 commerce or even worse cities that are limited to about 4-5 spaces total due to culture boundries surrounding them.

 

[emills]

A great way to see where you are financially (and scientifically) is to check the Gross national Product Rating (GNP) in the info screen/demographics. If you are last out of all the civs, then yes the AI has an advantage. If you are first, you are most likely in the advantage. If you are twice more than the rival best, then you are definately at the advantage.

I believe the GNP is the resulting total of all commerce that are actively worked by a tile in your empire. From this you can deduce if your are reseaching and making money faster than your opponents.

Many times in this forum, people will say something similar to what Beamup has posted above. 100% of 20 vs 50% of 40. (while the same in beakers, the second has more gold or culture production). When you see your GNP vs the rival best and averages, what Beamup and others highlight is more evident.

The demographics screen is one of the most powerful inormation sources in the game.

 

[Beamup]

I dont believe that is the case. Besides the AI capital and maybe city 2, the rest usually lack significant upgrading. also some of the cities are in horrible positions with little to no resources that can generate +1 commerce or even worse cities that are limited to about 4-5 spaces total due to culture boundries surrounding them.

They don't have to all have significant upgrading - the AI emphasizes cottages very strongly. As long as they have more cottages they come out ahead (in commerce, anyway). If their only improvements are 5 Towns, and you've got 20 Mines, 30 Farms, and 10 Workshops, they're still going to have more commerce than you do.

So go ahead and actually count cottages specifically, and look at how evolved they are. If you've got more cottages/villages/hamlets/towns specifically, not just more improvements generally (which is all you've yet stated), then that says there's something more going on. Broad generalizations covering all improvements do not.

If it does come out that they have fewer cottages than you do, I'd next look at the various gold and science enhancing buildings. An empire with Libraries and Universities in every city can certainly outresearch one with more cottages but no buildings. Trade routes are also potentially significant.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Also, if the some of the AI are very friendly with one another, they could be trading techs amongst themselves.

 

[katank]

What size map are you playing on? 4 cities sound like waaay too few.

Having the AI outexpand you is generally bad and makes you lose in the long run.

Don't be so afraid of overexpanding. Yes, ICS is gone in civ 4 but with relatively early code of laws, you can maintain a decent size empire (10+ cities) without going broke.

More land = more power in the long run. I've had many games where my science dropped to 30% and even 10% because of city upkeep but once I got code of laws (courthouses + FP) and currency, things turned around. Bunch of tech trades later, I'm the tech leader before the world leaves medieval.

 

[naf4ever]

The AI has no advantage. But it does get a free bonus cow resource which is what makes it difficult sometimes.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Next to all the commerce related answers in this thread (which are very important), I would also look at the following three things that influence the research speed.

1) Foreign trade routes produce more commerce than domestic ones. If your enemies have open borders with eachother, but you keep your borders closed, then they're going to have better trade routes. More commerce from trade routes means more research.
2)Do you trade technologies with the AI? They will trade technologies amongst eachother, so if you don't trade with them then you're only hurting yourself. But if you're the only one who's ahead with technologies, then they can't trade with you because you already have all the technologies that they have. For this reason, it's easier to catch up with technologies than to stay ahead in this game.
3) Technologies that are already known by several opponents become cheaper to research. So that's another reason that it is easier to catch up in technologies than to stay ahead.

Oh, and I agree with most posters in this thread, that it is better to build a few more cities. Almost every city will eventually become profitable, i.e. produce more gold + science than it costs in city upkeep + civic upkeep. Expansion is a good thing as long as it isn't done too fast. To find the ideal raet of expansion, you might have to play a few more games.

 

[Roland Johansen]

The AI has no advantage. But it does get a free bonus cow resource which is what makes it difficult sometimes.

Sorry, but that's nonsense.

 

[naf4ever]

Sorry, but that's nonsense.

I think the OP can decide for himself what is nonsense and what cow resources are for real..

 

[Roland Johansen]

I think the OP can decide for himself what is nonsense and what cow resources are for real..

Ok, sorry, maybe a bit harsh there. I thought that you were actually joking a bit.

Start 10 games and open the world builder after starting each. Only a few AI opponents will have a starting cow resource, sometimes you will start with a cow resource. I can post a number of AI starting positions without a cow resource, if you wish.

Note that the quality of the starting positions is actually linked to the difficulty level at which you're playing. But that doesn't mean that the AI always gets a cow resource at deity level.

 

[MrCynical]

Without knowing the difficulty level it's a bit hard to comment on this. If it's above Noble, then yes the AI gets a financial (or rather a research and production) advantage. Below Noble level, you get this advantage. If the AI are playing a financial civ they will have an advantage if you're not, and they also tend to build a lot of cottages as has already been mentioned. make sure you trade tech wherever possible. How about religion? Do the AI have religious shrines, since they really help early expansion?

The AI has no advantage. But it does get a free bonus cow resource which is what makes it difficult sometimes.

As Roland Johansen said, this is completely wrong. The quality of the starts does vary to some extent with difficulty level, but is still highly variable and no civ, AI or not, is ever guaranteed any particular resource.

 

[majk-iii]

The only discount the ai get, that i've heard of, is when upgrading units.
However that would mean that the ai has no reason to amass funds, doesn't it?
About science, i dont know, but i think the AI has to struggle every bit as much as the human player.

 

[spiceant]

The ai gets discounts on civic & city upkeep, tech costs, unit & building production costs, city food cost (for growth), unit & building production cost and probably a lot more (edit: also some extra happyness/health). (on difficultys above noble) it gets severe discounts on all the above on deity difficulty and either all or some of them to a lesser extend on prince and above. the ai is handicapped on the areas mentioned above, on difficultys below noble.

edit: there are no severe differences between player starting locations related to difficulty (tested 15 times with settler and deity difficulty default settings)

 

[King Jason]

One thing that gets me is - I play on noble (the fair level) and I was in a trade menu talking to a leader and he had about 200 gold to his name, with a 0 gpt as a trade option.

Nearly 3 turns later he gets rifling and wham, instantly all of his units that I could see (4 cities worth) were all rifleman.

That seemed like definate cheating. Also, as per the more cottages comment about the A.I. They seem to build farms more than anything else.

 

[MrCynical]

@King Jason: At Noble the AI gets a 65% discount to upgrading units, so it really wouldn't cost them that much to upgrade their army. It's just another of their bonuses, not a 'cheat' (which is a term I hate).

The AI tends to build quite a lot of cottages certainly, and more farms than most human players. From some of the games I've seen posted here a lot of people overdo the minimal farms approach and end up with considerably fewer farms than they need.

 

[Artanis]

One thing that gets me is - I play on noble (the fair level) and I was in a trade menu talking to a leader and he had about 200 gold to his name, with a 0 gpt as a trade option.

Nearly 3 turns later he gets rifling and wham, instantly all of his units that I could see (4 cities worth) were all rifleman.

That seemed like definate cheating. Also, as per the more cottages comment about the A.I. They seem to build farms more than anything else.

In addition to what MrCynical said, the AI will only trade away a fraction of the money it has. If you see 200 on the trade screen, the AI's treasury could very well hold 1000 or more.

 

[Roland Johansen]

There's some wrong information in this thread:

-It's true that the AI gets discounts on unit upgrading costs at every difficulty level. But the AI doesn't get discounts on everything at the 'normal' difficulty levels. For instance, at the levels below prince, the AI pays more for civic upkeep costs. The discounts on upkeep costs and the extra upkeep costs in some areas are probably well balanced at noble difficulty level. Nobel difficulty level is considered to be the even difficulty level.

-The AI will not use all its gold per turn for trade negotiations. Some is reserved for other things (just like a human typically does) like research or upgrading units or other stuff. You will not see this money in trade negotiations. To guess the amount of income the AI has, you could take a look at the power graph of total commerce (in the F9 menu IIRC). Compare the height of the graph with yours and you can get a reasonable estimate of the AI's economic power.