Psyringe
Scout
Harald said:
Tested and confirmed. The settler follows the oil that the AI shouldn't be able to see.
That's a downer.
Does the AI have preknowledge of the map?
- Thread starter Goombaz
- Start date
Tested and confirmed. The settler follows the oil that the AI shouldn't be able to see.
That's a downer.
Zhahz
PC Gamer
I don't know about pre-knowledge but AIs seem to have permanent refreshing knowledge about where they explore, if nothing else, and it's absolutely annoying.
- AIs know if your (water) resources are guarded or not without LOS - they'll send pillagers 100's of years after they've explored it.
- AIs magically know when land opens up. For ex, you take out a few cities from one AI leaving some open land gaps - every other AI in the game will send settlers as long as that land is open even though they have no LOS or other way of knowing that land is available.
- Similar to that, AIs magically know whether land is settled or not. They might send settlers all the way around your borders to settle some chunk of ice they visited 2000 years before. If you saw such a settler enroute and you settled that land the AI would immediately turn around even though they *should* have NO idea about the state of that land without direct observation.
- AIs know if your (water) resources are guarded or not without LOS - they'll send pillagers 100's of years after they've explored it.
- AIs magically know when land opens up. For ex, you take out a few cities from one AI leaving some open land gaps - every other AI in the game will send settlers as long as that land is open even though they have no LOS or other way of knowing that land is available.
- Similar to that, AIs magically know whether land is settled or not. They might send settlers all the way around your borders to settle some chunk of ice they visited 2000 years before. If you saw such a settler enroute and you settled that land the AI would immediately turn around even though they *should* have NO idea about the state of that land without direct observation.
The Condor
On an excellent adventure
Hey, what about mine? The settler doesn't go in the right direction. Does it at least work?
Psyringe
Scout
The Condor said:
I just finished testing it. Took a while because I checked several possibilities.
First, the savegame works.
The settler goes south in your savegame because in the south, there is one grassland tile more. So the south arm is more fertile than the others.
If I make the south arm the same as the others, then the settler will turn to the left arm, where the resources are.
Interesting finding, because this shows that the AI values this grasstile more than the resources.
The Condor
On an excellent adventure
Oh, crap. Didn't know I added an extra space. Also, I agree that is odd. And I forfeit (for once cuz I literally am always right or else I don't get involved) you win
. Shouldn't we sticky this or send it some place or to someone for it to get fixed cuz that is bad for the game balance I think?
Oh yeah, HOORAY! My zip thing worked. Also, thank you for being prescise (sp whatever) I need that much detail to do stuff.
. Shouldn't we sticky this or send it some place or to someone for it to get fixed cuz that is bad for the game balance I think?Oh yeah, HOORAY! My zip thing worked. Also, thank you for being prescise (sp whatever) I need that much detail to do stuff.
Just ran my own test and it's absolutely conclusive: THE AI CAN SEE UNEXPLORED TERRAIN AND INVISIBLE RESOURCES - GUARANTEED.
I set up a X style map of nothing but grassland. I removed all other resources from the map. There was absolutely no difference between one arm and another.
I gave the AI 1 warrior + 1 settler + 1 defensive unit (I noticed throughout my testing that the AI likes to leave a unit at home for defense and will not send out a settler unprotected, so to get the AI to settle, she needs 2 military units plus the settler).
I removed all techs from the AI.
I put coal on the right "arm" and the AI went straight for it.
I removed the coal and put it to the south. The AI CHANGED DIRECTION and went for the new arm.
I removed it again and put it on another, third, arm ... the AI changed direction and went that way instead.
I reset the map and put DYE on an arm - remember, completely UNEXPLORED - and the AI went for it. Again, wherever I moved it, the AI went that way.
With all arms of terrain being the same, NO MATTER WHAT RESOURCE YOU PUT THERE, the AI will settle in that direction 100% of the time and will change direction if you move the resource.
This is taking it 1 turn at a time, so you can see where the AI has explored and making sure that the arms are long enough so the AI can't see what's out there.
it doesn't matter if the resource is in unexplored terrain or visible/invisible according to research ... the AI will go for it everytime. THE AI CAN SEE ALL RESOURCES AUTOMATICALLY.
I even removed the coal and put horses (no tech to see them yet) on another arm .. AI switched directions. wherever I put the resource, that's the way the AI went.
I'm completely disgusted with my findings.
I set up a X style map of nothing but grassland. I removed all other resources from the map. There was absolutely no difference between one arm and another.
I gave the AI 1 warrior + 1 settler + 1 defensive unit (I noticed throughout my testing that the AI likes to leave a unit at home for defense and will not send out a settler unprotected, so to get the AI to settle, she needs 2 military units plus the settler).
I removed all techs from the AI.
I put coal on the right "arm" and the AI went straight for it.
I removed the coal and put it to the south. The AI CHANGED DIRECTION and went for the new arm.
I removed it again and put it on another, third, arm ... the AI changed direction and went that way instead.
I reset the map and put DYE on an arm - remember, completely UNEXPLORED - and the AI went for it. Again, wherever I moved it, the AI went that way.
With all arms of terrain being the same, NO MATTER WHAT RESOURCE YOU PUT THERE, the AI will settle in that direction 100% of the time and will change direction if you move the resource.
This is taking it 1 turn at a time, so you can see where the AI has explored and making sure that the arms are long enough so the AI can't see what's out there.
it doesn't matter if the resource is in unexplored terrain or visible/invisible according to research ... the AI will go for it everytime. THE AI CAN SEE ALL RESOURCES AUTOMATICALLY.
I even removed the coal and put horses (no tech to see them yet) on another arm .. AI switched directions. wherever I put the resource, that's the way the AI went.
I'm completely disgusted with my findings.
The Condor
On an excellent adventure
Goodjob Kolyana
. I was wondering why the AI in my game was taking so long to make a new city and I agree with you that I am unhappy with these findings. I really think this should be shown to someone in Firaxis or a moderator or something like that cuz this is bad.
. I was wondering why the AI in my game was taking so long to make a new city and I agree with you that I am unhappy with these findings. I really think this should be shown to someone in Firaxis or a moderator or something like that cuz this is bad.HalfBadger
The Great Whackyness
Psyringe said:I just finished testing it. Took a while because I checked several possibilities.
First, the savegame works.
The settler goes south in your savegame because in the south, there is one grassland tile more. So the south arm is more fertile than the others.
If I make the south arm the same as the others, then the settler will turn to the left arm, where the resources are.
Interesting finding, because this shows that the AI values this grasstile more than the resources.
Interesting, so we could actually test and list out what the AI values most, like which tiles types and which resources.
For example Ai will try to first settle grasslands, then plains, then forest, then hills, then it'll look for Iron, then Copper, then Ivory, then Gold, then Stone, etc.
Psyringe
Scout
Kolyana: I confirm that it doesn't matter whether the AI has explored the arms or not. It will know where the resources are, or where more grass tiles are (and probably more).
Condor: Not sure whether this thread warrants a sticky. Perhaps if we wrap it up and label it "AI secrets" or some such ... anyway, I guess it should go to the strategies forums then. Not sure about that since I haven't been there yet. Good that we have the savegames, so that people can check it by themselves if they are skeptical of our findings.
HalfBadger: Yes, that's correct. We could, for example, put different resources on each arms and look which ones the AI values more.
Condor: Not sure whether this thread warrants a sticky. Perhaps if we wrap it up and label it "AI secrets" or some such ... anyway, I guess it should go to the strategies forums then. Not sure about that since I haven't been there yet.
Good that we have the savegames, so that people can check it by themselves if they are skeptical of our findings.HalfBadger: Yes, that's correct. We could, for example, put different resources on each arms and look which ones the AI values more.
joethreeblah
King
Is it possible that it is going toward the same blue circles that you see when you have a settler?
The AI may know you are working fish tiles due to information available in the advisor screens to us.
Maybe try a larger map?
The AI may know you are working fish tiles due to information available in the advisor screens to us.
Maybe try a larger map?
The Condor
On an excellent adventure
IF you do send it somewhere make sure to include me and Kolyana as well as yourself and that other person. Yeah, that would be fun. You could make a new thread for that. Also, I think this is better since we already have 544 views.
joe' ... the AI can 'see' squares that are out of range and resources that are invisible until the required tech is researched (without actually having the tech).
Quite simply, it KNOWS the entire map right from the get go. PERIOD.
I think that this is deplorable and even if Firaxis doesn't do anything about it, they certainly need to know that we know.
Their entire AI 'engine' is cobbled together and shows no signs of clever thinking or working on any form of level paying field as the Human ... no, I don't expect things to be absolutely level, because the AI just can't 'think' that well ... but to 'know' what is hidden or invisible from the very first move?
Crude, very, very crude.
This game loses more of it's attraction with each yucky design flaw I discover.
Quite simply, it KNOWS the entire map right from the get go. PERIOD.
I think that this is deplorable and even if Firaxis doesn't do anything about it, they certainly need to know that we know.
Their entire AI 'engine' is cobbled together and shows no signs of clever thinking or working on any form of level paying field as the Human ... no, I don't expect things to be absolutely level, because the AI just can't 'think' that well ... but to 'know' what is hidden or invisible from the very first move?
Crude, very, very crude.
This game loses more of it's attraction with each yucky design flaw I discover.
NikNak
Warlord
Looks pretty conclusive to me, too. I just ran the test and it seems like the AI always beelines for the arm with the best resources. Interesting...
Xenocrates
Deity
What was suspected is now (unless you guys are all in conspiracy) proved.
The beast is unmasked.
Anyway some dilligent fellow might want to see if different civs/leaders calculate city spots differently.......
Firaxis: how could you?
Well done chaps.
The beast is unmasked.
Anyway some dilligent fellow might want to see if different civs/leaders calculate city spots differently.......
Firaxis: how could you?
Well done chaps.
The Condor
On an excellent adventure
Thanks. All three of us (Kolyana, Psyringe, and me) and that other person worked hard to discover this and I agree we should get medal or something for uncovering the lies of Firaxis.
HalfBadger
The Great Whackyness
The Condor said:
Yeah I recall them saying the AI would have FOW. I was really hoping for this, because it's easy to use this cheat to our advantage, seeing the AI sending a settler somewhere weird, hmm maybe I should get there first, even if it now looks like a poor spot...
The Condor
On an excellent adventure
Yeah like that commercial for fruitloops:
Follow the AI settler because it knows some place better! (Close enough
!)
Follow the AI settler because it knows some place better! (Close enough
!)NEW TEST:
Okay, the AI *DOES* have a Fog of War ... but it can see resources that should otherwise be invisible.
I built an EXTENDED X-island as before and accessed the AI's "REVEAL TERRAIN" option ... it seemed somewhat extended, but either way I reduced it right down to a 3x3 block ... smaller than a starting city would normally get.
On one of the extended arms (each 4 tiles in length) I placed an oil resource and the AI *DID NOT* head for it with his settler ... he moved onto one arm, went back to another, and then opted for half way down the first arm in the end ... AWAY from the oil resource. I would say, therefore, that there is a FOW.
HOWEVER ... I gave the AI his original KNOWN TILES ... that is, I cleared the FOW from all of the arms and used the oil again - which should be invisible - and the AI went straight for it.
It seems, therefore, that the AI knows automatically what is within a square - irregardless of technoligies known - but does not have unlimited visibility.
Okay, the AI *DOES* have a Fog of War ... but it can see resources that should otherwise be invisible.
I built an EXTENDED X-island as before and accessed the AI's "REVEAL TERRAIN" option ... it seemed somewhat extended, but either way I reduced it right down to a 3x3 block ... smaller than a starting city would normally get.
On one of the extended arms (each 4 tiles in length) I placed an oil resource and the AI *DID NOT* head for it with his settler ... he moved onto one arm, went back to another, and then opted for half way down the first arm in the end ... AWAY from the oil resource. I would say, therefore, that there is a FOW.
HOWEVER ... I gave the AI his original KNOWN TILES ... that is, I cleared the FOW from all of the arms and used the oil again - which should be invisible - and the AI went straight for it.
It seems, therefore, that the AI knows automatically what is within a square - irregardless of technoligies known - but does not have unlimited visibility.
ZippyRiver
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
- Messages
- 454
It am certain it also know the location of goody huts. In a previous game, I was on the edge of a continent, and had a goody hut about 9 tiles away. To my right were 5 different civs. What made this map unique was there were only two huts remotely close to me. Given movement time, and distance from the huts I determined the AIs made a beeline for the hut that I was able to reach. It also ignored huts close to it's own area (ran right past them, given the direction). It knew it could pick those up later with units it built. The primary focus was EITHER get any huts within range of the human player first, OR, try and make contact as early as possible. Only way it could do the latter is if it knows your starting location. Now the possibility of making contact and just being lucky with the hut could be, however the different civs went to the hut area first, then over towards my city. I am CERTAIN it was the hut that was the driving force. That being said, I think the trigger that make the AI re-direct it's units is if the human player nabs the hut. I left it alone and let the first AI who got there pot it. All the other civs also headed for the tile, even though the hut was now gone.
The sad part about this, is it ruins one of the most fun early game activities, and that is exploration and nabbing some goodies. Sure, evey civ wants to get those huts, but when it ignores ones close to itself and focuses on only denying the human player a FAIR shot at them, I think that is wrong.
I don't have a problem with the AI getting bonuses the higher you go up in levels. Those are not cheats, there bonuses to make the game more difficult which is what the player selected. But knowing where resources are prior to having the tech, knowing where the huts are, AND beelining to the ones closest to the human first are BIG cheats. Given the choice to settle near a (undiscovered) resource close to itself or one close to the human, it will also settle near the human first. Another "deny" tactic based on cheated information.
Civ 4 is no different than any other game of the series. The AI cheats. Does it piss me off, yes. Does it stop me from playing, not really. If I get too mad at it I will stop for a while, but end up comming back to it. Mainly, because there are so few TBS games to choose from. I knew the AI was gonna be a cheating knothole before I bought the game. and got it anyway. I had already beat the other tbs games I have (not all of them cheat) and wanted to look at a new game.
One day someone will make a good tbs empire game that does not cheat like Civ, and it will be the death of franchises that do. Until then your options are limited at best.
The above exampled map was one I had decided not to play anyway, and used it to see just how bad it was. I would explore, sentry, and whatnot, then reload from the begining so that I could sentry units in areas on the AI pathing to the hidden huts and resources. That was a random generated map as I wanted to see if there was any difference in test maps from the world builder and random ones. There is no difference.
Anyway, back to my current game. I have Isabella against the ropes fairly early and am enjoying kicking her cheating butt.
That brings up one more gripe. Why place two other civs 13 tiles away, and 3 more just the other side of that, on a large continent world. Just how big of a map do you have to create to have a little breating room early on for expansion? (madface). But that is a topic for another thread.
The sad part about this, is it ruins one of the most fun early game activities, and that is exploration and nabbing some goodies. Sure, evey civ wants to get those huts, but when it ignores ones close to itself and focuses on only denying the human player a FAIR shot at them, I think that is wrong.
I don't have a problem with the AI getting bonuses the higher you go up in levels. Those are not cheats, there bonuses to make the game more difficult which is what the player selected. But knowing where resources are prior to having the tech, knowing where the huts are, AND beelining to the ones closest to the human first are BIG cheats. Given the choice to settle near a (undiscovered) resource close to itself or one close to the human, it will also settle near the human first. Another "deny" tactic based on cheated information.
Civ 4 is no different than any other game of the series. The AI cheats. Does it piss me off, yes. Does it stop me from playing, not really. If I get too mad at it I will stop for a while, but end up comming back to it. Mainly, because there are so few TBS games to choose from. I knew the AI was gonna be a cheating knothole before I bought the game. and got it anyway. I had already beat the other tbs games I have (not all of them cheat) and wanted to look at a new game.
One day someone will make a good tbs empire game that does not cheat like Civ, and it will be the death of franchises that do. Until then your options are limited at best.
The above exampled map was one I had decided not to play anyway, and used it to see just how bad it was. I would explore, sentry, and whatnot, then reload from the begining so that I could sentry units in areas on the AI pathing to the hidden huts and resources. That was a random generated map as I wanted to see if there was any difference in test maps from the world builder and random ones. There is no difference.
Anyway, back to my current game. I have Isabella against the ropes fairly early and am enjoying kicking her cheating butt.
That brings up one more gripe. Why place two other civs 13 tiles away, and 3 more just the other side of that, on a large continent world. Just how big of a map do you have to create to have a little breating room early on for expansion? (madface). But that is a topic for another thread.
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