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Does the AI make enough siege units or not?
- Thread starter akillias
- Start date
Tyrant Roger
Warlord
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- Apr 5, 2006
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- 203
The AI chronically makes too few siege units. It also deploys them erratically and often ineffectively. Even when it brings an adequate number with a SOD it often attacks with other units before using the siege to reduce the culture defense or to damage defenders with collateral effects. Sometimes the AI does use siege effectively on my SOD in its territory, but not often. The AI's ineptitude with siege is one of the main reasons the human player has such an advantage in combat.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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- Jan 26, 2008
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- 27,993
AI almost never makes enough siege. Playing with the xmls, I've found that setting its unit priority to COLLATERAL makes it somewhat serviceable. Fortunately, no warmonger spammy AIs have that code by default, although Bismark is relatively strong in theory with it.
Bleys
Deity
One of the reasons "Going to war" is such a strong strategy in this game is that the AI sucks at it. Its not a bad builder, and left alone to settle huge tracts of land hassle-free, it will usually do pretty well, when it comes to warfare, the AI is just lacking.
I imagine its hard to program though. My favorite style of map is "lots of big islands" mostly because its easy to get left alone to build, then totally annihilate the AI when the time comes because its even MORE inept at naval based wars, heh.
I imagine its hard to program though. My favorite style of map is "lots of big islands" mostly because its easy to get left alone to build, then totally annihilate the AI when the time comes because its even MORE inept at naval based wars, heh.
Stewie0416
Who Cares?
I usually just dominate the seas in the period when i have destroyers and AI is still using frigs. Its just not fair!
The jump is quite large, i mean c'mon, 8 stngh frigs vs 30 stngh destroyers?
Anyways about the siege thing, AI is terrible at siege units. I've been scared several times when my spies see a large stack of like 10-15 cannons. Only to find that they parked UNDEFENDED on a hill in my territory. A few dead cavalry later that stack was gone.
The jump is quite large, i mean c'mon, 8 stngh frigs vs 30 stngh destroyers? Anyways about the siege thing, AI is terrible at siege units. I've been scared several times when my spies see a large stack of like 10-15 cannons. Only to find that they parked UNDEFENDED on a hill in my territory. A few dead cavalry later that stack was gone.
capnvonbaron
Democratia gladii
I usually just dominate the seas in the period when i have destroyers and AI is still using frigs. Its just not fair!
Well... considering historically, the ship guns on sail ships weren't very effective past maybe 500 yards, whereas destroyer guns could easily bombard from a mile away or more (modern 5" Mk42 guns are effective to over 25,000 yards!). Combine that with the fact that destroyer armor would shrug off a cannon ball, where a wooden frigate, even with some iron cladding, would have a tough time taking even one modern shell...
Not to mention a destroyer can power upwind and turn circles around a sailed ship...
I'd say a destroyer vs a frigate would be a very uneven match!
azzaman333
meh
The AI seems to make enough seige units, but uses them incredibly ineffectively.
Joshua368
Warmongering builder
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2008
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- 3,072
Well... considering historically, the ship guns on sail ships weren't very effective past maybe 500 yards, whereas destroyer guns could easily bombard from a mile away or more (modern 5" Mk42 guns are effective to over 25,000 yards!). Combine that with the fact that destroyer armor would shrug off a cannon ball, where a wooden frigate, even with some iron cladding, would have a tough time taking even one modern shell...
Not to mention a destroyer can power upwind and turn circles around a sailed ship...
He means there's nothing in the middle. You tech combustion and all of a sudden the AI gets absolutely murdered, which you described. This is where wolfenshire comes in.
Also on the topic of not making enough seige once I had Saladin launch a naval invasion against me with two macemen and like fourteen catapults. In BtS, very non-threatening.
carl corey
Deity
Hehe, dealing with those two macemen makes a joke of the rest of the "stack".
JTMacc99
That's a paddlin'
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- 892
Realistically, it would be less fun to deal with an AI programmed to use siege weapons the way WE use siege weapons. I would be very unhappy if the AI suddenly marched a stack of 8 trebs, 8 cats, 8 maces, and various other units into my territory and started picking off my cities with relative ease.
As was stated above, the AI is pretty good at building, and with the difficulty level adjustments the way they work, can keep up with technology without having to be smart about the way it goes about it. Therefore, it makes a lot of sense to have the AI civs programmed to wage defensive war mostly (with the occasional nutjob thrown in to keep us honest about defending our own cities.)
So, with that in mind, how should the AI use siege weapons? I would think it should have some sort of programming to have a couple siege weapons stationed in each city with barrage promotions, and that it should automatically attack enemy stacks that are next to the city. Right now, it far too often leaves siege weapons to defend, when any self respecting human player would have suicided the unit into an attacking stack rather than let it get destroyed.
I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to modify the game this way. It's just a matter of telling the AI to build a couple siege weapons to hang out with the longbows/rifles, and have those particular units have an automatic attack order if the enemy stack has more than X number of units stationed next to the city.
Oh, and on the destroyers vs. wooden ships: Am I the only one who noticed that when this imbalance of technology occurs, that most AI civs send the entire fleet into one or two cities waiting for it's own scientists to discover combustion? If there was ever a time to sacrifice a few units when attacking from sea, simply to capture a city in a single turn, it's when the entire enemy fleet is in town. It's the old Pearl Harbor strategy, only it's probably a good idea to make sure you can out produce the other civ once the war is officially under way.
As was stated above, the AI is pretty good at building, and with the difficulty level adjustments the way they work, can keep up with technology without having to be smart about the way it goes about it. Therefore, it makes a lot of sense to have the AI civs programmed to wage defensive war mostly (with the occasional nutjob thrown in to keep us honest about defending our own cities.)
So, with that in mind, how should the AI use siege weapons? I would think it should have some sort of programming to have a couple siege weapons stationed in each city with barrage promotions, and that it should automatically attack enemy stacks that are next to the city. Right now, it far too often leaves siege weapons to defend, when any self respecting human player would have suicided the unit into an attacking stack rather than let it get destroyed.
I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to modify the game this way. It's just a matter of telling the AI to build a couple siege weapons to hang out with the longbows/rifles, and have those particular units have an automatic attack order if the enemy stack has more than X number of units stationed next to the city.
Oh, and on the destroyers vs. wooden ships: Am I the only one who noticed that when this imbalance of technology occurs, that most AI civs send the entire fleet into one or two cities waiting for it's own scientists to discover combustion? If there was ever a time to sacrifice a few units when attacking from sea, simply to capture a city in a single turn, it's when the entire enemy fleet is in town. It's the old Pearl Harbor strategy, only it's probably a good idea to make sure you can out produce the other civ once the war is officially under way.
carl corey
Deity
The Pearl Harbor strategy works all the time. I've seen AIs put almost their entire fleet in a city even post-Combustion. It usually results in a quick dip in power when I conquer it. 
Then again, the AI has no idea what dozens of battleships, destroyers, aircraft carriers and transports full of marines do, neatly grouped outside each of his coastal cities... By the time he finds out it's too late.
Then again, the AI has no idea what dozens of battleships, destroyers, aircraft carriers and transports full of marines do, neatly grouped outside each of his coastal cities... By the time he finds out it's too late.
Joshua368
Warmongering builder
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I'd have no problem with that, it'd be great to have an AI that posed an actual threat with military tactics. You'd just have to get better at defending (protip: do not ever defend like the AI does or you'll end up like the AI
)Even better is if the AI learned proper tactics as a way to make higher levels more difficult, as opposed to tons of various bonuses and advantages.
JTMacc99
That's a paddlin'
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Well, I would imagine that diverting that many hammers into actually being prepared for an invasion as opposed to preparing my own invasion force would put a real dent in my ability to run all over the world taking control of territory.
I'm just thinking it would be easier to modify the AI's use of siege weapons to be more in line with its general strengths than it would be to completely change the way it goes about using its military.
I'm just thinking it would be easier to modify the AI's use of siege weapons to be more in line with its general strengths than it would be to completely change the way it goes about using its military.
I concur with this. It can bombard fairly well, but is not good at utilizing collateral at all.
The worst trait of the AI, as far as I can tell, is that it suicides entire SoD's onto my cities. How hard can it be to have the AI check combat % and only attack when the odds are favorable?
I play on Prince level, does it get smarter at higher levels? Is there an AI mod that addresses this problem? I looked into AI mods recently, and the only decent one I found was still in beta.
Current game, Ragnar dows me; I'll need a few turns to upgrade my army and get it to the border. My border city is on a plains hill, flanked by lakes and mountain peaks (the only way into my heartland is through it - duh, that's why I put it there). It's got wall, castle, and the Chicken Pizza bonus. Rags brings a stack of about 60+ units (mostly Beserkers and Elephants) with only 4 trebs. I was a few turns from Rifles, so I let him just play with the city for a few turns, got rifles, upgraded, marched over and massacred him. The AI really needs to have a ratio programmed in for siege in stacks - it just wasn't anywhere near enough, especially for such a heavily fortified target.
Generally I have to agree that while the AI often doesn't make enough siege (sometimes it does), whatever siege it does make, it uses very poorly.
However, there seems to always be the exception to the rule and I remember a perfect example:
It was a game I was playing quite awhile ago (maybe a year or so ago). I don't remember what civ I was, or what civ the AI was. But it was on noble, and I had invaded the AI in the modern age with a large stack of artillery, modern armor and mech infantry. Altogether my stack size was roughly 50 units. I was marching my stack all together and conquered the first (relatively puny) border city with ease. Not really thinking, I parked most of my units inside the newly conquered city at the end of the turn, thinking I would stage the rest of my invasion from there. Well I end the turn and on the AI's turn, just wave after wave after wave of AI artillery suicides into the city (the AI had a railroad system set up everywhere and its cultural borders extended right to the edge of my newly conquered city). By the time the AI's turn was done, my stack of 50ish units was just gone, the AI had retaken their city and my major offensive was over for the time being. I was shocked. I have never seen the AI use siege units effectively like this since.
However, there seems to always be the exception to the rule and I remember a perfect example:
It was a game I was playing quite awhile ago (maybe a year or so ago). I don't remember what civ I was, or what civ the AI was. But it was on noble, and I had invaded the AI in the modern age with a large stack of artillery, modern armor and mech infantry. Altogether my stack size was roughly 50 units. I was marching my stack all together and conquered the first (relatively puny) border city with ease. Not really thinking, I parked most of my units inside the newly conquered city at the end of the turn, thinking I would stage the rest of my invasion from there. Well I end the turn and on the AI's turn, just wave after wave after wave of AI artillery suicides into the city (the AI had a railroad system set up everywhere and its cultural borders extended right to the edge of my newly conquered city). By the time the AI's turn was done, my stack of 50ish units was just gone, the AI had retaken their city and my major offensive was over for the time being. I was shocked. I have never seen the AI use siege units effectively like this since.
Mercenary82
King
The AI doesn't make enough siege compared to a human player. This is because the AI won't concentrate their forces in large enough stacks. It would be too easy to kill the AI with horses if they did build 50% siege like humans.
I beg to differ. The AI builds humongous stacks, that are vulnerable to collateral. I rarely have more than 25-30 units in a stack (I'll just build more stacks) whereas the AI will just pile EVERYTHING onto one point. I've seen stacks of 80+ (Monarch level, btw), but still with only 10 or so siege units. The AI will concentrate everyting they have on a single axis of attack (which requires a counter on only a single axis), but they just don't build enough siege and this seems like something that could be coded into the AI (every build of 3 units requires build of siege unit; or some such thing).
The exception to this is that the AI LOVES Artillery (as the poster above already described). It's on the path to Rocketry (which is a high-priority for the AI), and the AI usually gets it before Assembly Line, so it's the most powerful unit they can build for awhile and they build alot of it.
