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Does the Civ V tech tree even make sense?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by DarkSchneider, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. Poke

    Poke Warlord

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    I don't see it as a direct prerequisite either, but, generally speaking, a seemingly irrevelant tech can open paths to other techs that are relevant, or if not, those ones can lead to techs that are! CiV doesn't do itself any favours though by its abridged tree
     
  2. Creepy Old Man

    Creepy Old Man Warlord

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    One goal of a game is that it be user friendly. Sure, it's nice if we have options, but if we have the entire tree to choose from initially, where all but a few are "stupid" choices, then that's poor game design. So your suggestion that we have the option of researching satellites first really just creates a nightmare of complexity for the user, who has to spend too much time working out the math to see which technology really is the best, when really we just want to play a game.
     
  3. IncurableVirus

    IncurableVirus Chieftain

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    I could not agree more! The reason that I used Music in relation to satellites is simply because the only way it could have helped would be if a scientist was insipred by music to research something that led to satellites. A system of inspiration seems so complicated that it couldnt be programmed into a game for every technology. I dont think you are saying this, but I would find Ceremonial Burial as a prerequisite to the Wheel EXTREMLY annoying if the rational was that once you research CB, God inspires you to invent the wheel.

    Signed,
    Virus
     
  4. tylor

    tylor Warlord

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    Civ5 tech tree is just ********, and there is no excuse for it. Especially in later stages. Nearly ALL of Modern Era techs have random prereqs.

    They could do it right in Civ1, for god sake.
     
  5. Harvestmoon

    Harvestmoon Chieftain

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    Point for Poke.

    Never played it, but it sounds similar to what I was thinking of.

    Jeez, I didn't mean to crush your soul, man. :) We cool?

    Satellites was a poor example, I'll concede that. Navigation/Education/Optics/Compass is a better part of the tech tree to look at.
     
  6. ryantherenegade

    ryantherenegade Chieftain

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    It makes sense to me that art based techs would be required to fulfill certain science based ones - civilizations throughout history have always advanced through different mediums at the same time.

    Maybe an alternative idea would be to have the tech tree like the centre spoke of a wheel, with several paths leading outwards from the start. This way you could have 4 or 5 technology branches leading outwards from the start point reflecting certain aspects of technology - eg weapons, science, culture, engineering, etc.

    Extending this further (like another user, this is all "off the cuff") independent and strategic play could be introduced with 'mini-wheels' for technologies that require a prerequesite, but no further technology - example being fertilizer as an offshoot of chemistry, but restrictions are put in place by having the wheel be interconnected to a certain point.

    I'm picturing something like a spiderweb right now, if that makes sense.
     
  7. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Have you been playing Avalon Hills Civilization Harvest?

    Drama and Poetry, 60 commerce, provides a 20 point credit to literacy and 10 points to democracy

    Literacy, 110 commerce, provides a 25 point credit to Law, Democracy, and Philosophy

    Law, 170 commerce, must be acquired before democracy

    Democracy, 200 commerce


    The rules of that came made you stockpile commerce, and getting values over 80 where very hard early game, even late game getting over 150 without getting pillaged or having to discard was tough. You could get Law->Democracy if you really wanted too and it would be cheaper, but it is much easier to go Drama->Literecy->Law ect, plus then you get the bonuses of drama and literacy.

    In civ it would be more like

    Writing 250 science, -25 to the cost of all future arts required for Paper
    Paper 400 science, -50 to the cost of all future arts, prerequisite for printing press
    Alphabet 300 science, -100 to the cost of education,
    Drama 500 science, -75 to the cost of education and -200 too the cost of music theory
    Education 800 science, -100 to to all future arts costs
    Music theory, 1200 science -100 to all arts costs, -300 to military tradition

    So, if you researched writing first by the time you researched all 6 techs you would have saved 125bpt, about half the cost of the tech, plus you get whatever the tech gives.

    If you tech education first you spend 800 bpts, but then backtracking becomes much cheaper since writing then only costs 150 bpts. If you tech writing(250)->paper(375)->Alphabet(225)->Education then Education only costs 675 bpts, you spent a total of 1525 bpts getting there. On the other hand Education(800)->Writing(150)->Paper(225)->Alphabet(125) would cost 1400 anyway, and you would have a long wait before putting your education tech in motion (say it gave schools and writing gave libraries that did essentially the same thing, the writing path would let you use libraries much sooner)

    That is the underpinnings of making the player make a strategic choice with different advantages and disadvantages. By the time you get to more expensive techs like chemistry the arts and sciences bonuses from the rennisance add up to 500 or more beakers per tech, something you could skip if you wanted to beeline, but not something that lets you just skip all those cheaper techs. You could skip a few like alphabet or music if you wanted too though.

    Its the choice between having to go for one big tech then backtrack, or go forward step by step to make the big one more affordable.

    The other thing would be more like this:

    Physics, 5000bpt, 250 point science credit.

    So you CAN skip writing and all the ancient and midevil arts\sciences techs and go straight for physics. But doing so would require your civ to advance so much that writing would be free by the time you did it (cause you needed it for that tech to work anyway) and then you would advance rapidly due to the modern discovery. It would push you pretty quickly into the Renaissance (but you'd still probably be behind the people that teched there normally)


    Is this pretty much what you mean?
     
  8. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    The above idea is interesting and I like the example you give where some techs give discounts to others, but some are still required to get ones further along. Absolute prereqs must be mandatory in many of the trees links for it to have much meaning IMO. Some things simply CANNOT come before the other.
     
  9. Harvestmoon

    Harvestmoon Chieftain

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    I haven't, but those are very neat ideas.
     
  10. Ramesses

    Ramesses Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.

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    I once made a thread to create a collaborative effort to redesign the tech tree. It didn't take.
     
  11. Harvestmoon

    Harvestmoon Chieftain

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    Monumental efforts initiated by the Great Ramesses didn't take? Where's your UA? :)
     
  12. civnoob13

    civnoob13 King

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    The point is, no matter how long it takes, you should never be able to research techs without prerequisites.
     
  13. civnoob13

    civnoob13 King

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    completely agree. Discounts are a good idea but there MUST be prereqs
     
  14. DarkSchneider

    DarkSchneider King

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    If you remember, Civ IV had discounts. The tech tree was much less linear, because you didn't need to get all prerequisites to research a new technology, but you got bonuses for every additional prerequisite technology you did research.

    My lord, is there a single thing that Civ V got right that Civ IV did not? I'm accoustomed to video games sequels being strictly better than their originals. Are video games going to go the movie route now?
     
  15. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Johnny W
    I agree, thats why I had

    "Paper 400 science, -50 to the cost of all future arts, prerequisite for printing press"

    In there,

    But this would make research a lot more open, instead of a tech tree it would be more of several tech clusters like ancient tools, ancient arts, ancient sciences, ancient military, ect, then another cluster for the other eras. There would be some hard prerequisite but for the most part it could be non-liner teching.

    Darkschnider
    Exactly.
     
  16. Ramesses

    Ramesses Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.

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    Unfortunately, it only works on Wonders, not Projects.
     
  17. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    I was just emphasizing this fact so that there would be no more talk of cavemen researching satellites.
     
  18. Harvestmoon

    Harvestmoon Chieftain

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    Wow, still can't get past that, huh? Even after I said it was a bad example?
    FFS, dude, get over it.
     
  19. Poke

    Poke Warlord

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    I'm messing with you sorry - I wasn't upset or anything but stuff like that can and does incite flamewars.
    It's not just Satellites to be honest, but many techs, especially the higher end ones. But yes, your system can work, but has to be qualified for less advanced techs like gunpowder, navigation etc. These could be researched early, and doing so will give insights to other techs, techs lower on civ's ladder and possibly shortening their research times themselves
    However, it brings up the issue from the original post I made, about technologies not necessarily discrete ends, though you might not see it as relevant. Gunpowder could easily be stumbled upon, a random occurrence without any research initiating it, and without much, if any knowledge of chemistry. It wouldn't be fair for this discovery of gunpowder to be said to be fully researched in any capacity at this point, further research improves its quality and extends its uses - it becomes a blur
     
  20. Leuf

    Leuf Chieftain

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    Here's an idea... what if you could research certain techs a second time to get bonuses for what that tech enabled, or just go on to the next techs. And once you researched any of the techs that were dependent on that tech you couldn't go back to get that bonus. More effective military units would be the obvious thing, but you could also have things like slightly more effective markets and libraries that have long lasting effects. The tree would stay very simple looking but there would be a ton of real choices along the way.
     

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