Doing BAD at the start-- WHY???

[noni]

hi there
I dont get on the train, what the ... am i doin wrong?

I am playin my third task (i think), anyway with the germans and as a Warlord. On a Large Map with 7 competers.

I wanted first to expand very fast putting the science high and make a littele money. And then when i feel mighty and have the panzer switch to a goverment for war and destroy my neighbours. But i am at 950 AD and got my continent with 11 cities. Science was always at 80% but i think it was always too low, build the "Great library".

And then i was trying to expand a little on a other continent but the others are always much more powerfull than i and have always more money and much more cities. Why i am doin so bad?? Must always give them what they want or they declare war and i am not able to defend.

Why i am doin so bad what am i doin wrong?? Why are the so much faster. Why my treasury is always running low. What can i do?? My cities got at this time 4-5 squares irrigation and 3-4 mined. all citys are linked and i also got iron resource. Temple and granaries, libraries, and barracks. It expanding very well and each city got good points but very low money and science is also not that good i think. And 11 cities are not enough for the time at 950 AD on a large Map -- i think!!

Which goverment type is the best for the first to grow in a non war system. When i am mighty enough and want an neighbour to be washed the i want to do so. You guys are talkin in these threads about money, that i think is impossible to get or to produce.

What can i do better or what should i do better to be also powerfull and have enough money. And to be the first in science.??

What is a good start??

Very very thanks for helping me

noni

 

[Bamspeedy]

If your not at war, Republic is definitely the best for science and commerce. Is your continent real big? Maybe you got screwed and got placed on a bad island. Do you have any unhappy people in your cities/ entertainers, those will be a drag on your economy. Build harbors in your coastal cities so maybe you can trade with some of the other civs, and your coastal cities will grow. Colleseums and cathedrals might be needed. Courthouses, too if any of the cities are losing production to waste or money to corruption. Marketplaces really help your income. Is all the tiles your people are working on roaded? That's a big money boost right there.

If you are all alone on the continent you shouldn't worry about wars too much, just make sure all cities have at least 2 of the best defensive units that are available, to thwart off any coastal invasions. If you don't have many military units, the AI will always demand stuff because of your small army.

 

[chiefpaco]

There are many schools of thought on the start of the game. Here's some stuff I stick to:

- A couple rushed productions under Despotism can help. It can save 19 turns in constructions when timed right. Watch your city producing an improvement. If you can hurry using only 1 citizen & can save a lot of turns, it could be worth it. Try not to do it too many times in one city because you'll have too many problems recovering from the unhappiness.

- The key to keeping up in tech is trading. If you don't stay in the loop by contacting them every once in a while to see if they've discovered some new advances, you can get left behind. Thankfully, the tech value drops proportionally with each civ you know, so make contact with everyone to get the lowest price.

- If you're not warring, try the Republic. Just make sure you have access to a couple luxuries first. I'd also get a temple in all your towns & a marketplace in your bigger cities.

- Everyone starts slow, so don't worry. Even the expert players. It takes time for the human to catch up because of the way the AI players exchange everything between themselves. Keep watching your empire for areas you can improve the most.

- Watch your science slider. See how much it costs to buy tech from a friendly neighbour. You might be able to judge if it is worth reseraching the tech yourself at 80% or spend the turns at 0% science & buy it instead.

Good luck

 

[shdwlord]

To me it sounds like you are building too many buildings at the start, temples, libraries, ect. On a large map especially, you need to concentrate on settlers and claim as much territory as you can. I usually build 1 spearman, 1 settler if the city will grow to size 3 before the settler is done, then another spearman, then another settler. If the city won't grow to size 3 before the settler is done, I will build a worker or a building. Somewhere in there you do need to build workers, and have them concentrate more on building roads so your settlers/spearman can get to new city sites faster. Improve 1 or 2 cities landscapes for wonder production with your workers. When the distance from your core cities gets to be far enough from your new borders that it would take too long for settlers produced their to found new cities, then concentrate on constructing buildings in those cities, or start alternating settler/spearman groups with building in between. This works for peaceful expansion, and on large or huge maps you usually have time to do that before wars break out. If you find yourself close to someone, it might be better to concentrate just on your best offensive units, let your neighbors waste time building settlers, and conquer the cities that they build. You basically have to find out by experimentation which strategy you prefer, but switch to the other one if it becomes necessary.

 

[noni]

thanks so far,

I think i will try to build settlers like a mad one and expand and expand. And when i am enough that way i will start with the buildings and others.

but what is about the science? How high, you guys have it at the start? And what is with the cash how much are you making every turn at the start?

noni

 

[Jersey Joe]

Read through the Short Tips topic and the War Academy topic. Both of those topics helped to reduce my learning curve. Also, there are many other good topics here that will help you.

 

[john heidle]

Figuring one's tax and science is tricky. I don't think that there are any strict guidelines. Basically you have costs for buildings and sometimes units that have to be paid by taxes. Then the rest of the money goes to either luxuries (later in the game) or to science or to build a cash reserve.

Your science rate also varies. Whatever you are researching has a certain base cost. If you are the first to discover that tech you would pay the full cost. If others, however, discover the tech first and trade it amongst themselves, the cost/time for you to discover it drops quickly.

Your best strategy is to try to trade with your neighbors and buy or trade contact with everyone. There is a lot of tedious checking the diplomatic screen involved here to see what new tech has been traded amongst the AIs.

 

[Willem]

Originally posted by noni
thanks so far,

I think i will try to build settlers like a mad one and expand and expand. And when i am enough that way i will start with the buildings and others.

but what is about the science? How high, you guys have it at the start? And what is with the cash how much are you making every turn at the start?

noni

I think you're making the mistake of pushing your science bar up without looking to see whether it does any good or not. In the early part of the game, all you pretty much need to do is set it at 10%, not 80. There's a maximum and minimum number of turns in order to research a tech. If pushing your science up doesn't have an impact on how many turns it will take, then you're just wasting money that you could use for your military.

The main reason why the other civs are picking on you is you have a weak military. Look in on your military advisor once in awhile, and see how you compare to the other civ's militaries. If you're not at least "average", then chances are they're going to push you around. If you're stronger than they are, they will pretty much leave you alone. So don't waste your money ramming your science bar up all the way, and build some units instead.

 

[Rain]

Trying to keep up with the ai in tech is very difficult. I have found it much easier to focus on cash and trade for techs. Dont become to worried if u are a couple of techs behind. The key techs are the ones involving military units until u get industrial. As to being behind thats normal. If u are middle of the pack or higher u are doing ok. Keep in mind much of score is based on territory. Use f11 so see where u sit in land size. The key is to ramp up your production in your core cities. Eventually us hould be able to out produce the other civs. All military might is based on a strong econmy without one u cant sustain a powerful military anyway. Also being really large territotorially is a limited boon. Only your core cities will ever be huge producers plus whatever u can get from building the forbidden palace. Ideally u want two core areas. I like to aim for two star configurations. the first with my cpaital at center; the second with the fp. 11 or 12 high production cities is actaully not too bad. Once u get production up work on military strength. Focus on upgradeable units. If u can survive middle ages without investing too heavily in longbows and horse units and are able to build a strong core of muskets, then u are well set up to shift into industrial with rifles and infantry, then supplement them with panzers/tanks/artillery etc. Your upgradeables will eb the core fo the future army (ie mod armor and mechs).

 

[Sentinali]

I have been playing Civ since the original in 89 (I think) so I consider myself a very big Civ fan. That said, IMHO, these are the keys to getting a great start in Civ 3.

1.) Play with an easier civ, hopefully one with a good anchient era unit that will dominate the early game. The two best are the Persians (IMMORTALS) and the Greeks (HOPLITE). If you like war, go with Persia, if your a pacifist, go Greek.

2.) Get a good start location. Think cows and wheat, one is OK, two or three in you city radius is awesome. The early phase of the game is all about growth. If your learning and you get a location with lots of plains and no cows/wheat, quit and restart, early disadvantages are magnified as the game progresses. Every move you make before 2000 BC are the most important.

3.)Using your first worker, first develop the three best tiles in you capital region, the road to you second city, thee tiles and so on. Don't develop what you don't need early on and don't automate workers until you have a big empire.

4.) Check your science bar and set it to ~20% for the first 2-5 techs (YES, 20%). Make sure you have 1 tech/ 40 turns, and the most money possible.

5.) Build this out of your first city, Warrior (2X), Settler, (Warrior (2X), Settler, Granary, and then repeat until you have the land you want.

6.) EXPLORE - contact other civs, in this method of gameplay those other civs are your lifeline to tech. Buy it, Extort it, Get it. If you play as Persia and they don't give it too you, Get 5 IMMORTALS, attack their capital, take it, and then ask for peace with a couple of their cities and all their tech to appease you. Repeat as desired.

7.) Don't bother with anchient era wonders. Yes, they are cool, but look at them as things which can slow the AI down and speed you up.

8.) Research Order:
Persia
- Iron Working (Get those Immortals out quick, and dominate)
- Pottery
- Ceremonial Burial (now play with Sci/Tax ratio, if you can get more that 1 tech every 15 or so turns bump it up to max tech while maintaining a positive bank balance, if not, but and extort it from others)
- then straight to Monarchy (change governments)
- then literature, construction, currency, and code of laws
- you should be able to trade/extort for Republic at this point (change governments, if not at war)

9.) Get the Sistine Chapel, the only wonder you can live without! Go straight for it in the middle ages and have you best shield producing city start by building a palace at the start of the middle ages, switch production after you've discoved theology.

10.) Ideally out of your first five cities try to specialize them into
2-3 settler/spearman farms (cow cities with granarys) - create new cities
2-3 war factorys (hilly cities with barracks) - pump out immortals

11) Keep cities close, 4 tiles max between cities, I personally like about 3, a contiguous border is a very nice thing to have. Have you capital and FP cities at the center of two "city rings".

Hope this helps.

Sentinali

 

[noni]

First thanks to you guys, this is what i call great help. Learning on the problems that are forward is the best way to get good.

Hi Sentinali, yes i did that way persians on chieftain and on a large Map and i had a culural win with 937 points. At the end it was a little bit too esay for me so a little boring.

I quitted the game with the Germans i mentiond above, there was no way out. Started new! now i am playin with the japaneese, on Warlord and on a large Map. On my continent are the indians and the chineese and i really got a good start this time. The both respect me and soon i will build samurais and minimize the indians so i can expand like i want. The chineese i am sorrounding with my cities and close the city border soon. The cities near the indians and chineese got or are all building Temples so they expand and dont get absorbed. soon i will have researched the monarchy!!

QUESTION: Which goverment type should i switch to monarchy or Republic??

Yes i think i will have war but not long, against the indians just minimze them when i have build enough Samurais. They got five cities not more so this will be not a long war!!!

QUESTION: is war a problem at republic???


At the moment i will go that way minmize the indians and then expand and expand and switch as soon as possible to Demo. And if chineese will annoy me i must also minimize them.

QUESTION: Is it better to have the continent just for me?
OR let them one or two cities for trading techs???


At the science i am doin good cause i am building the "The great library" (will be finished in 10 turns) and traded some and find much more while i was exploring the big continent. Found them in these "small cities"? or whatever this is where also babarians can be in it sometimes!!!!!
You know what i mean....

Very thanks for answering..

noni

 

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sentinali
1.) Play with an easier civ, hopefully one with a good anchient era unit that will dominate the early game. The two best are the Persians (IMMORTALS) and the Greeks (HOPLITE). If you like war, go with Persia, if your a pacifist, go Greek.

An Expansionist civ would be a good choice. If you build lots of Scouts and pop as many Goody Huts as you can, you can usually find yourself ahead of everyone else by the Middle Ages. The only civs you'll have to worry about as far as tech advancements are concerned are other Expansionists, or Scientific civs.

3.)Using your first worker, first develop the three best tiles in you capital region, the road to you second city, thee tiles and so on. Don't develop what you don't need early on and don't automate workers until you have a big empire.

Agreed. Don't waste time early on developing your city's lands. There's no point even irrigating until you get Monarchy or Republic, since in Despotism you won't gain the extra benefit from it.

4.) Check your science bar and set it to ~20% for the first 2-5 techs (YES, 20%). Make sure you have 1 tech/ 40 turns, and the most money possible.

I'd recommend 10% myself, even 0 if you have a Scientist in one of your cities. Usually anything more than that won't help you get a tech in less than 40 turns, until you get to at least a Republic form of government. Even then, at least with Engineering, I find I can turn my research right down to almost nothing.

5.) Build this out of your first city, Warrior (2X), Settler, (Warrior (2X), Settler, Granary, and then repeat until you have the land you want.

My approach is to have every new city generate enough Settlers to build two more before I start to create units/build improvements. Even then I find I have to toss in a few Settlers from a few of my earlier cities from time to time, after they've built an improvement or two, or some units.

6.) EXPLORE - contact other civs, in this method of gameplay those other civs are your lifeline to tech. Buy it, Extort it, Get it. If you play as Persia and they don't give it too you, Get 5 IMMORTALS, attack their capital, take it, and then ask for peace with a couple of their cities and all their tech to appease you. Repeat as desired.

Again, an Expansionist civ can be really helpful in this.

7.) Don't bother with ancient era wonders. Yes, they are cool, but look at them as things which can slow the AI down and speed you up.

Some of the early wonders are rigged so that you don't have much of a chance to get them. For instance, if you play the Americans, you can start building the Pyramid right away. Other civs don't have much of a chance to build it before them. Another one is the Oracle. If England is in the game, it's pretty much assured they'll build it first.

11) Keep cities close, 4 tiles max between cities, I personally like about 3, a contiguous border is a very nice thing to have. Have you capital and FP cities at the center of two "city rings".

That all depends on what map size you're playing with. Do that on a huge map, and you'll find yourself at a disadvantage later on. The main thing at first is to grab as much territory as possible,
and if you can build cities quickly without overlapping, you'll be better off in the long run.

 

[Willem]

Originally posted by noni

QUESTION: Which goverment type should i switch to monarchy or Republic??

You'll do better at tech advancement with Republic since you get an extra trade for each of your terrain squares. Monarchy is better at keeping your people happy while you're expanding, since you can have up to 3 military units acting as police, and there's no war weariness if one of your neighbours decides to be a jerk and declare war.

QUESTION: is war a problem at republic???

It's better than Democracy, but not as good as Monarchy. You can usually be at war for quite awhile before war weariness starts to become a problem. Being on the defensive end of a war makes a big difference.

QUESTION: Is it better to have the continent just for me?
OR let them one or two cities for trading techs???

That depends on your neighbours. If you have Germany next door, be prepared to fight and annihilate them if you can, they'll cause you more and more grief as the game progesses. The same goes for the Zulu. These are the two most aggressive civs in the game. The most peaceful are the Indians and French. You can check this out in the editor under Civilizations. Every civ has an aggressiveness value built into it.

 

[Sentinali]

I must disagree with the suggestion for an expansionist civ, you really don't get the same value added effect of the commercial, scientific, or industrious bonuses.

IMHO, if you are learning the game, this is just a disadvantage. Expansionist only work if their is room to expand, large/huge, sparsely populated worlds.

 

[Sentinali]

Replys to your questions:

1. Monarchy or Rep, the road to M is easier, and you can get it alot faster, besides the AI will go for Rep. By having an early rev to Monarchy you will generate a production advantage compared to the AI, this government shoudl get you quite nicely through the Stone Age. I usually change governements just before the era change to Rep, then quickly again to Demo.

2. A continent to yourself, this used to be the ideal in Civ and Civ II because the AI couldn't do landings with any degree of force. In Civ 3 what really matters is the layout of your cities. I usually use the follow to determine if a location is worth settling/keeping or if I should just ignore the location or raze the city (whatever the case may be)

1.) Is this city within 10 squares of my capital / FP, if so, its a good location.

2.) Does the city have access to my harbours and does it access a luxury or strategic resource?

3.) Does this city represent a strategic location to allow ship access or army access to my civ and deny my enemies?

If a given location does not answer yes to those questions, forget it in the early game. Settle it only one you can afford to rush build infantry, temple, library, courthouse, and police station in the mid/late game.


War in Republic - a short war (~10 turns) is no problem, after that watch out for war weariness without Universal Sufferage/ Police stations/ or lots (ie; 4-5) of luxuries,

Hope this helps.

Sent.

 

[WickedWombat]

cry:
I have actually went as far as keeping a notepad that has all of my cities and how many settlers and workers that I produce for each. That way I can kind of share the responsibility throughout my empire. However this really only worked for me on Regent and below.

I have just started a game on Monarch and I can't believe how aggressive the AI is! It is not as easy to organize and share workloads throughout my cities. I pretty much have to go on a city by city basis. Currently I built shi@loads of military units and lots of settlers. LOTS OF SETTLERS! I'm really not focusing too much on workers until my empire is at the size I want it. I generally get enough in the beginning by conquering cities.

Has anybody discovered a pattern of building that works on universally on Monarch and above.

Thanks.

 

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sentinali

IMHO, if you are learning the game, this is just a disadvantage. Expansionist only work if their is room to expand, large/huge, sparsely populated worlds.

True, but if you do play huge maps, they definitely give you a good head start. I'm usually 5-6 techs ahead going into the Middle Ages, unless there's another expansionist civ in the game.
With a bit of research spending, I get at least 2 techs ahead of them. It's mainly the expansionists that are driving the early tech trading, so if you're one yourself, you can at least keep up, if not get ahead. And you don't have to worry to much about spending on research, or buying techs, so you can concentrate your finances more on your military, or rushing improvements once in Monarchy or Republic.