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Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by Krill, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I suppose we could get Oracle - no one is industrious, but someone probably has marble. Worst case, we get a lot of gold to play with.

    Mysticism is useless to us, a religion is nice (and Monastaries would be really useful), CoL and Monarchy are that way, too.

    on the other hand, Writing->Iron Working gets us our cheap libraries and allows us to clear jungle, to make those ivory more productive and get the gems.

    How fast could Copper Kettle build Oracle at size 5? I think it would make 10 hammers, so 15 turns?

    Going to priesthood also makes writing less expensive, opens up monarchy and CoL...

    That said, it delays getting the gems on line by quite a bit. But we have copper, so iron isn't all that important.
     
  2. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    At size 5 KC makes 19 hammers per turn fully improved (mine on 3 grass hills, mined copper, irrigated wheat (and irrigated grassland to speed growth)
     
  3. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    well. that's 8 turns for oracle, so what the heck.
     
  4. Karhu

    Karhu Devil's Advocate

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    If we really want any wonder, waiting for the optimal build time instead of putting hammers in early would seem to be ill advised. Spare axemen or Oracle? I'll take the Oracle, thank you.
     
  5. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    I think I should stress that there are other options than going for a religion and the oracle: Going straight for IW and the gems site, for instance to keep up horizontal expansion, or getting some libraries up as Memphus suggests, that we should consider. It is my opinion that if we can get a religion on the way that the oracle plan will have a much higher pay off than any of the other plans, so we would need to decide now on what risk we would take to get the oracle, and how high the payoff would have to be to justify that risk.
     
  6. Karhu

    Karhu Devil's Advocate

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    I like grabbing a religion on the way to the Oracle, using said wonder for a second religion, then popping the eventual great profit for a 3rd. This is always great in a single player game, but we should examine the value of securing 3 of 5 religions in a 5 team multi player game.
     
  7. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Going for religion/oracle has advantages, which is that getting Oracle is a big deal, but is a bit of a gambit, since we have no particular advantages to getting it - if someone else tries it, we could miss our religion by a turn and not get oracle to someone with marble. Further, it means that what may end up being our best science city will take, I dunno, 12-15 turns longer to be built up.

    Going for IW and libs is safer, of course, and sets us up to be a research powerhouse.

    I'm quite on the fence about this.
     
  8. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Actually the way I've been playing out the simulations the third city doesn;t have many improvements delayed. We could, for example, let it work a grassland forest until the borders pop and then immediately improve the cows if we settle it 2233 of the capital (with the cows outside the borders for the first 5 turns), or we could immediate cottage a tile and let the city work that until the cows are pastured. The gambit is that as we don't have any more food resources to hook up until we get IW we really do need IW to continue horizontal growth in a respectable fashion; we can't see any seafood to the north west, or north east, the rice in the east is in jungle as is the gems city only food resource (an irrigatable banana).

    The fastest I've gotten the oracle in a sim is turn 66, but that was with a few diferent worker moves that we havealready invalidated, so I don't know how fast we cn do it, but considering how many forests we have at CK (I thought we had alot less TBH). I'm sure if we simmed it out we could get the Oracle a couple of turn earlier by chopping a few of these forests (also, we would start building the oracle around turn 56-57, so KC wouldn't be up to size 5 by then, nor would IS by particulary large, so we would have to be very dedicated in getting one of those cities large and improved very quickly, so some extra irrigation may occur).
     
  9. Karhu

    Karhu Devil's Advocate

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    Sounds good. I'll most likely be gone when you guys finalize this decision, but know that I'm a vote for going after the Oracle with gun'z a blazing.
     
  10. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    What would we want to take as tech from the Oracle? Getting Oracle just to have it is not necessarily best option as AT already stated.
     
  11. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    Binary science actually gets more important with multipliers...Krills analysis already showed the power...the only time it MAY NOT make sense is on Liberalism if it costs 1 turn delay.
     
  12. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    That's one of the other items up for discussion; I think the main ones that are attainable without delaying the oracle are alpha, maths and aesthetics if we go for writing after PH, also Hed Rule, Metal Casting and CoL would be available without any other teching after researching PH. Personally I think I would favour Alpha so we could then trade for techs without anyone if we had contact with a team or two, and try to set up an easy trade for IW, or maybe get HR and be able to get some serious production in IS and CK.

    I think though that we should get a few simulations run to completion and see what we can do to try and make the oracle idea as safe as possible, not just the wonder, but also making sure we don't screw our own economy trying to get it.
     
  13. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    would it make sense to go for writing first, no matter what?
     
  14. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    We don't really need writing before 2nd build in city 3....so maybe Priest>Writing.
     
  15. Viva_Chingon

    Viva_Chingon Condition 1

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    Realistically, if we want a shot at getting Oracle we need to get started on the tech path...hasn't Buddhism already been founded? I forget...if it has then we're behind a lot, although our GDP is higher than anyone else's when we're @ 80% research so we might be able to catch up to whoever founded it...especially when we run at 100%. :)

    But that consideration amplifies the question of which tech do we want to pop? We can go for MC ATM but Alphabet (300:science:)is good too but would require us to research Writing (at 12:science: that would take 10 turns) before we complete the Oracle (which we're projecting at 8 turns in KC, IIRC). For our freebie tech, do we want to just go after whatever tech has the highest :science: value? It seems that it's a trade-off between what we want/need and overall :science: progress.

    I also like the Great Wall (150:hammers:). We would get a free Great Spy and keep barbs out at the same time -- GS can build Scotland Yard (+100%:espionage: right off the bat). Great Wall also doubles GG points within cultural boarders...someone is going to put it up and attacking that team will give them a disproportionate number of GGs to play with. Obviously it's more useful with raging barbs but it would still keep our workers safe at home and might dissuade someone from declaring war early on.
     
  16. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    it will take longer than 8 turns - we won't get that city up to size 5 in that time.

    I dont' think anyone's founded anything - we could get CoL (religion + courts, which give a boost to espionage themselves), or MC or Alpha or Monarchy - we look like we might have some happy issues (2 early luxes aren't terrible, but hereditary rule is useful..
     
  17. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    if no religion is founded by the time we get AH....Oracle will be on everyone lists....i bet other teams are discussing it now.

    if we founded the religion (buddism) but didn 't covert all other teams would most likely give up....
     
  18. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    good lord - oracle is nice, but it's not game breaking. For one thing, whoever gets it will have a nice target on their back.

    Or is this from what happened last game?
     
  19. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    We'll we got the oracle last game...and thenn made sure to have 1 ally. by the time everyone figured out what was going on there was no chance....
     
  20. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    But you guys figured out how to get a CS sling, right?
     

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