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Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by Krill, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, better late then never...

    OK, so as DoI I'm supposed to keep discusion moving and focused on what we build, workers, sliders and stuff like that defined in the constitution. To that end, I'm opening this thread purely for the discussion, and not for number crunching; we can use the old thread for the pure number crunching and quote posts, numbers and scenarios from there in this thread as required. This thread is for people to talk about what they think our grand strategy should be with regards to building stuff.

    I'll probably add more later, but if anyne has any questions or answers please post them .
     
  2. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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  3. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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  4. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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  5. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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  6. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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  7. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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  8. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    OK, main topics for discussion:

    1. The Memphus plan for the quick third city and w new workers hasn't been given a great deal of approval, although noone has yet disagreed that that is the plan we should go with.

    2. Slider settings: Ronnie commented that we should be using a binary science rate of 100% and 0% science, to maximise our gold and beaker outputs at the cost of a few turns in the early game gaining techs instead of just researching at our maximum sustainable rate as Memphus claimed would get us techs asap at the cost of a few beakers.

    3. Build queue for CK; no one at all has said what we should build there after the current warrior is completed. The current choices are: Warrior, Scout, Worker, Settler, Barracks, Granary.

    4. We need to be debating what we do after our current phase of the game is over (ie, what to research after AH, exactly where we should plant the third city, future city sites etc)
     
  9. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    My own opinions on the above questions:

    1. I think the current plan is the best one we have; even with 4 workers we are hardpressed to get all of the tile improvements up and running asap along with chopping the trees in the capital; to the extent that a fifth worker straight after the settler is worth consideration IMO.

    2. Binary science does give us maximum output and it does not cost us a turn on pottery, and it would not cost us a turn when researching AH, so I think that after pottery we should start using binary science for three reasons: 1) maximum output of gold and beakers 2) saves us gold to use for events whilst we are researching at the start of a tech whereas otherwise we would not have that store of gold to protect us and 3) saving gold allows us to change research priorities before we start research proper, ie if another team researches the tech we are about to start and agrees to sell us that tech for either gold or for another tech we could research.

    3. I think we should try to get a granary in CK after the warrior, we could chop the grassland forest (which could afterwards be irrigated to help with growth to size 5) and then build axes until we hit the hapy cap or we decide to build a worker or settler there. Whilst a barracks would be good, the granary helps us much more and our axes should be fine unpromoted whilst fogbusting against barbs instead of trying to attack the barbs whilst on hills.

    4. This one requires lots of discussion, but I think that if religion has not fallen by the time we get to AH we should considertrying to get a religion and oracling something along the lines of Alpha/HR/MC, or research IW straight away and get the gems city hooked up so our two poduction cities can make real use of their terrain.
     
  10. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    1) Do we plan to build that city in the east?
    2) I believe binary research is optimal as long as we don't have multipliers (library, market), then it gets complicated. If we're not planning to use pottery the very first turn we would get it (ie. if we don't have a worker ready for cottaging and no city ready to build a granary), then binary research is probably best.
    3) I agree with a granary to let our city grow.
    4) We don't have mysticism yet, do we? How are we planning to get culture?
     
  11. Karhu

    Karhu Devil's Advocate

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    We are creative! +2:culture: baby! yeah!
     
  12. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    Actually, I checked the game, and binary science won't delay pottery by a turn after all, so I can;t really think of a reason to not go binary science from next turn.
     
  13. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    :facepalm: Forgot that...
     
  14. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I don't remember - we have no gold, correct? So, with 1 more city, we need to run 90% science.

    If I remember correctly, binary means we run 1 turn at 0% and 9 turns at 100%, which makes us an extra gold with the same beaker output, right?

    How do things like knowing other civs and having pre-reqs work into that?
     
  15. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/tech_research.php (link to the article which has been copied below for the teams convenience, I make no claim to it at all)

    One important note.

    FLOOR means rounding DOWN to the nearest integer AND it has higher precedence than all other operators EXCEPT FOR parentheses. You will see it used a lot in the article.
    The basics (of generating beakers)

    1) Each city generates a raw amount of commerce via the squares that are being worked and the trade routes in the cities.

    2) This commerce is in turn translated into beakers (research), coins (gold), or notes (culture) via the technology and culture sliders. The actual amount of beakers and notes are gained by using the specified slider rate in the following equation:

    FLOOR (total commerce * the specified slider rate).

    The remainder is then given in gold.

    So, yes, you WILL get AT LEAST one gold from each city that has a commerce that is not a multiple of 10, if your science or culture is not 100%.

    3) Each city then takes each amount and adds in any additional sources of research, gold, or culture (via shrines, production processes, and specialists, mainly).

    4) Each city then multiplies it by whatever modifiers it has depending on what buildings it has built (e.g., beakers are multiplied by 1.25 if it has a library, gold is multiplied by 1.5 if it has a bank, etc.). NOTE: multipliers are ADDITIVE (i.e., if you have a library and university, your beakers will be multiplied by 1.5 (1 + 0.25 + 0.25) NOT 1.5625 (1 * 1.25 * 1.25)).

    5) The beaker totals are then added up across the cities and the sum is your base beaker total.
    Technology Costs

    To calculate the technology cost of a technology:

    1) Take the base cost of the technology. (This can be found for each technology in Assets\XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfo.xml).

    2) Take the Difficulty Modifier and add 0.5 * the Number of teammates you have to it. (The difficulty modifier can be found in Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4HandicapInfo.xml.)

    3) Multiply 1) by 2) and take the FLOOR of the product.

    4) Multiply 3) by the Map Modifier and take the FLOOR of the product. (The map modifier can be found in Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4WorldInfo.xml.)

    5) Multiply 4) by the Speed Modifier and take the FLOOR of the product. This generates the actual cost of the technology. (The speed modifier can be found in Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml.)

    Thus the formula to calculate a Technology's cost is:

    Technology Cost = FLOOR (FLOOR (FLOOR (Base Cost * (Difficulty Modifier + 0.5 * # of teammates)) * Map Modifier) * Speed Modifier)
    Applying the Research to the Technology

    The amount of beakers applied to the technology cost is dependant upon the number of civilizations which know the tech and the number of requirements you have fulfilled for the technology.
    Calculating the Known Civilizations w/ Tech modifier

    1) Multiply 0.30 by the number of KNOWN, LIVING civilizations, who have the tech.

    2) Divide by the number of civilizations which STARTED on the map and ROUND DOWN to the hundredth place (0.01) of the quotient.

    3) Add 2) to 1

    Tech Known by Civilizations modifier = 1 + RDDW (0.30 * # known Civs who have the tech / # of Civs who started the game
    Calculating the Prerequisites modifier

    1) Start with 1. If the technology does NOT have a minimum requirement (i.e., the starting techs = Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining), then use 1 AS the modifier.

    2) Add 0.2 to 1) if a Technology has a MINIMUM Requirement that the player has met. Note: Even if a tech has MANY MANDATORY PREREQUISITES, it will still only give you a boost of 1.2 because you MUST have all those prerequisites to research the tech. (IOW, the minimum requirement IS all of those prerequisites.)

    3) Add 0.2 to 2) for EACH ADDITIONAL OPTIONAL Prerequisite that the player has met.

    Requirements modifier = 1 + (0.2 * MINIMUM Req. met) + (0.2 * # of Optional Prereq. met)
    Calculating the Actual Amount of Beakers Generated Toward a Tech

    To calculate the amount of beakers which you generate toward the technology:

    1) Take the total sum of beakers generated by all your cities (the result from the basics part).

    2) Add 1 to it if you have a city.

    3) Multiply 2) by the Known Civilizations w/ Tech modifier and take the FLOOR of the product.

    4) Multiply 3) by Prerequisites modifier and take the FLOOR of the product.

    The formula to calculate the amount of beakers applied to your technology is:

    Beakers applied to Technology = FLOOR (FLOOR ((Total Base Beakers + 1) * KCwT modifier) * Prerequisites modifier)

    An Example:

    I always seem to understand better with an example, so here's a basic one.

    Say you want to research Code of Laws which has a base cost of 350 beakers, the mandatory requirement of Writing and the optional (meaning you must research one of them) requirements of (Priesthood or Currency).

    You know Writing and Priesthood

    You produce 37 net beakers per turn and you have met 3 other civilizations who know it out of 7 who started the map.

    You started on a standard map (1.4 modifier) at the monarch difficulty level (1.15 modifier) at epic game speed (1.5 modifier) and have 1 teammate.

    Your cost would be:

    FLOOR (FLOOR (FLOOR (350 * (1.15 + 0.5 * 1)) * 1.4) * 1.5)

    FLOOR (350 * 1.65) = 577
    FLOOR (577 * 1.4) = 807
    FLOOR (807 * 1.5) = 1210

    Total cost = 1210

    The amount of beakers applied to code of laws would be:

    FLOOR (FLOOR ((37 + 1) * (1 + RDDW (0.30 * 3 / 7))) * (1 + 0.2 + (0.2 * 0))

    1 + RDDW (0.30 * 3 / 7) = 1.12
    FLOOR (38 * 1.12) = 42
    FLOOR (42 * 1.2) = 50

    Beakers applied to Code of Laws/turn = 50

    Note that having Writing AND Priesthood only gives you a bonus modifier of 1.2 because you must have at LEAST Writing PLUS one of the optional prerequisites to be able to research Code of Laws. If you also had Currency, then the modifier would be 1.4.


    The next bit in the spoiler tags is part of the article, but according to a reputable source has been fixed.

    Spoiler :
    Overflow

    The overflow is calculated by the modifiers from the PREVIOUS Technology. Therefore, if you finished researching Writing this turn, and you had all THREE optional requirements, the overflow beakers which applied to your next technology would be equal to however many you had left USING THE MODIFIERS FOR Writing after finishing Writing. So, your Requirements modifier would be 1.6 (1.2 * 3). So, you could conceivable get a significant boost toward your next tech OVER WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN if you have a lot of overflow.


    Repercussions

    1) It can be VERY important to establish contact with all the other civilizations in order to speed your beakers applied count. You could potentially be making 28% (17 known civs w/ tech/ 18 civs total) more beakers than you normally could on a tech. This is especially true on harder difficulties. If you just meet half of the other civs, your research on techs known by the others would improve by 14%. This is probably the biggest repercussion of the calculation.

    2) If you're going to research several technologies and one is an optional requirement of another, research the optional one first as that will boost your research toward the other one unless you have a specific reason for researching the other one.

    3) If you're researching the starting techs (no prerequisites modifier), try to reduce the amount of overflow you have, as you're multiplying it by the lowest amount possible. It would be better spent earning some gold which may be necessary to run a deficit research job.

    4) If you're researching a tech which is known by a lot of people and which has many optional prerequisites which you already have, try to time it so that you end a turn with 1 beaker left to research that tech. The next turn INCREASE the amount of commerce you generate in order to increase the research overflow on the next turn to the max amount possible. You could potentially generate 104.8% ((1 + 17 known civs w/ tech/18 civs) * 1.6 [tech w/ 3 optional prerequisites]) more beakers of overflow than you normally would for that tech (assuming it's from Writing to a Starting Tech which no one knows. I know, it's unlikely. ). However, for a realistic overflow difference getting almost 46% (1.25 * 1.4 / 1.2) more beakers in overflow is very feasible.

    [First tech = 6 known civs w/ tech out of 7 civs and 1 additional optional prerequisite obtained]
    [Second tech = no known civs with tech and no additional optional prerequisites obtained]

    like Paper w/ Civil Service and Theology to Education.

    5) Pre-Alphabet (and possibly in non-tech trading games), you will be able to determine the number of known players with a certain tech but not who has this specific tech unless all known or no known civs have it. (thx to DaviddesJ for pointing this out).

    6) Similar to repercussion #5, if the AI is ahead of you in tech, you will be able to determine the number of known players with a technology which is BEYOND your research ability (i.e., those you do not have the prerequisite technologies for) but not who has this specific tech unless all known or no known civs have it. NOTE: there would also be times where you would NOT know whether another known civ has the tech as the civ modifier would be small enough that no difference could be detected. (thx to Roland Johanson for pointing this out.)

    7) If you don't choose a tech as soon as you found your first city, you are probably losing a bonus (if you don't choose a starting tech). This might not be that significant, but when every beaker counts, losing two beakers in the beginning might mean the difference between getting that iron rush 1 turn faster.

    8) If you have a neighbor who you're thinking of killing off who has techs which you have not researched yet, it might not be worth it to kill them off UNTIL you've researched the tech (1 neighbor who knows the tech in a 7 player game will provide a 1.04 boost).
    Additional Modifier for knowing 1 more civilization who has the tech out of....

    2 Starting Civilizations = 0.15
    3 Starting Civilizations = 0.10
    4 Starting Civilizations = 0.075
    5 Starting Civilizations = 0.06
    6 Starting Civilizations = 0.05
    7 Starting Civilizations = 0.0428...
    8 Starting Civilizations = 0.0375
    9 Starting Civilizations = 0.0333...
    10 Starting Civilizations = 0.03
    11 Starting Civilizations = 0.02727...
    12 Starting Civilizations = 0.025
    13 Starting Civilizations = 0.0230769...
    14 Starting Civilizations = 0.0214...
    15 Starting Civilizations = 0.02
    16 Starting Civilizations = 0.01875
    17 Starting Civilizations = 0.017647...
    18 Starting Civilizations = 0.01666....

    Thanks to:

    * LordTerror for his work dealing with the teammate modifier
    * Zombie69, Roland Johanson, kryszcztov, jesusin, and LordTerror for suggesting ways to improve and/or clarify the article
    * DaviddesJ for suggesting repercussion #5.
    * Roland Johanson for suggesting repercussion #6.
    * Arthog for his idea about dead civilizations possibly contributing to the modifier which led to repercussion #8 and for providing a save file to test the idea on.
     
  16. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    1. 1. If we are doing something different we would have to cange our minds like now...that said 3 cities and 4 workers is a strong start, especially with copper kettle cranking out axemen.

      Agreed. And thanks for the crunch on Pottery. while it does work overall i would like to see the "discovery" turn posted in both cases. reason being is once you have a certain amount of :gold: on the last turn of :science: reaserch it could be best to run at 70% to finish the tech instead of dropping to 0 :science: again. (i.e. if you miscalculated the gold you would need)

      Agreed build order:
      1. warrior
      2. granary (help with chop from worker #3 out next turn in the capital after he does his chop)
      3. Axemen* until :) cap.
      ==> Axeman #1 goes to city #3 as that is our weakest point.

    what abour writing? we have cheap libraries? (just to mix it up) Also Math would be nice sooner rather than later.
    Keep in mind we have the ivory to hook up for 1 more :) buster.
    If we are going to do the Oracle, due to no religion mikght as well go for the CS slingshot....:lol:
     
  17. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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  18. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

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    3 :science: though for all that work? and 1 turn sooner for the tech means we see horses 1 turn sooner? (i am simply disagreeing so more conversation takes place)

    the biggest arguement for running this way hasn't been fully adressed yet, and it is related to random events :)
     
  19. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    That's alot of axemen. Infact unless we managed to do some serious irrigation around KC it would take quite a while to reach size 5, I'd imagine, especially if it was working mined hills. What about growing to size 3 then chopping the grasslandforest hill next to the river into a worker? That would give us an extra worker to irrigate with, and a mined grasshill to work.



    Eh, personally I'd prefer going IW after AH and getting the gems hooked up asap, the gems city would be perfectly OK working a mined gems tile until the food is hooked up and provide an extra base 10 commerce and added happiness.

    The Oracle I'd be looking at to land around turn 65 and only get something like Alpha/HR (448 beakers) with, so we wouldn't have to delay it for research. The main reasons as I see it are: Denial, GP points to a prophet, religion, happiness for HR, diplomacy benefit for alpha (tech alliance would definately help people like us and want to trade with us instead of gangbang us). To get CS we'd need to research maths+CoL, an extra 900 base beakers which would take us a fair while to research to and would run the risk of another team getting the Oracle for alpha and reaping the beneis outlined above.
     
  20. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

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    We can see horses 1 turn sooner, though it doesn't mean we can use the horses 1 turn sooner. The only benefit as I see it is that we can either thank Sullla for giving us horses or curse him for being stingy, though I agree 3 beakers isn't exactly the most influential amount of beakers ever.
     

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