[NFP] Domination Victory Elimination Thread

[Leucarum]

Alexander/Macedon [27] (26+1) Never runs out of steam
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [16]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Gorgo/Greece [3]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [8]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [3]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [15]
Shaka/Zulu [22]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [7] (10-3) She has definitely flown under the radar. Advantages of having a name late in the alphabet?

 

[TCBB]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [16]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Gorgo/Greece [3]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [5] (8-3) Been explained before. Pillaging can only get you so far; melée naval units are too situational; and Beserkers are just awful.
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4] (3+1) Id like to see him last a little bit longer. Honestly, go try him out for domination: his faith generating potential combines extremely well with grand master’s chapel & his strong culture game. Crusade is another great alternative. He’s certainly better than Norway or Spain.
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [15]
Shaka/Zulu [22]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [7]

 

[bengalryan9]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [16]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Gorgo/Greece [3]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [6] (5+1) It's not about what he can actually do at sea, it's about what he can do to the coast. In the hands of anyone who knows what they're doing, he literally shuts down ALL coastal tiles with his longships that a) you won't be able to kill easily and b) can just retreat one tile into the ocean where you can't do anything to heal. His opponents either keep repairing their coastal tiles (giving Harald another chance to pillage them for more bonus yields), or they abandon them altogether slowing down their own progress. Nobody in the game flat out shuts down tiles huge stretches of tiles like Harald does, and this last all the way until Cartography. That's what, the first 3.5 eras of the game? He is WAY stronger than he gets credit for.

...And no, having a strong navy to go and capture a city on another continent and having the ability to settle cities there while there's still space available is not redundant, because of loyalty. The minute I conquer your coastal city surrounded by other cities it's going to be feeling heavy loyalty pressure and will be difficult to keep. However, if I've settled a few cities on your continent early on launch my attacks from there I'm not going to struggle with loyalty near as much. This is another huge advantage.

Harald with a lower score than Frederick? Philip? Korea (who he can easy keep tech pace with when pursuing domination)? Rome (Legions only take you so far)? Really?
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [12] (15-3) "Science is super important when it comes to domination! But only if we're talking about Korea! Ignore Australia, Maya, Norway, and Alexander! If we're going to vote anyone up for science, it *has* to be Korea, just like always! Only they can science!"
Shaka/Zulu [22]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [7]

 

[The Highwayman]

Note: Peter's upvote by @TCBB wasn't accounted for in previous post. Added.

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13] [16-3] Solid overall, and I like the extra military card. Production bonuses are nice, but Pete and a few others can flat out purchase an army with faith. Or simply purchase follow up units in newly captured cities without the need of building them in your starting empire and shuffling them across the entire map. Bonus combat to CSs is very situational. The U Boat would be decent if naval warfare were actually a thing, but sadly it's not. Not bad by any means, but it's middle of the pack territory for Freddy.
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Gorgo/Greece [3]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [6]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [12]
Shaka/Zulu [23] [22+1] I can bide my time until the Medieval era. Then the AI is forced to play on Deity +++. Must feel pretty bad.
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [7]

 

[pjotroos]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Gorgo/Greece [3]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [7] (6+1) In addition to everything else that was said already, there is a simple fact of which civs actually actively want to be at war - and with Harald, between coastal raiding and pillaging, it genuinely feels rewarding to do it, and his benefits kick in all the way in ancient era. Even some domination powerhouses, like Zulu or Ottomans, are better off waiting before they get the ball rolling. He wouldn't be my pick for top 5, but he doesn't deserve to go yet, either.
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13] (16-3) Conversely, Kupe is alright for domination game if that's the way you want to play it, but - Toa aside - his reasons for it are in the same ballpark as Victoria's, Gorgo's, Curtin's and so on; they are things useful for any victory type, so by that virtue they help out with domination, too. He's alright for it, and deserved to stay here for as long as he did, but I think it's time to start seeing him out.
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [12]
Shaka/Zulu [23]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [7]

 

[Jewelrunna]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Gorgo/Greece [ELIMINATED] (3 - 3): Just gonna put Gorgo down for good. While Thermopylae gives you rewards for combat, these become less impactful as the game goes on later and the civic costs increase. Plus, Hoplites are unfortunately not the greatest unique unit. Certainly good for a Domination victory, but not as exceptional as you might be inclined to believe.
Harald Hardrada/Norway [8] (7 + 1): Gonna continue hoping on the "boost Norway" train, because it's quite apparent that many of y'all haven't played Norway since the buffs. Arguably no Civ in the game is rewarded more for going to war than Norway. You declare war on your neighbor, village all their stuff, accumulate a tech lead because of their pillaging bonuses, rinse/repeat with your new and improved army. Also, the Viking Longship is a lot more usable because of Norway's general navy production bonus, and I will die on the hill that the Berserker is the most underrated unique unit in the game.
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [12]
Shaka/Zulu [23]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [7]

EDIT: Amended for @pjotroos

 

[Weraptor]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [8]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [28]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [12]
Shaka/Zulu [24] (23+1) Bumping Shaka because Suleiman and Alex have flown so high.
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [4] (7-3) Should go next.

 

[JhGf_123]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [5] [8-3] Hi everyone, long-time lurker but new poster. I just wanted to pop in because this directly ties into what I’m currently doing in Civ.
I’m not amazing at the game, usually I play Emperor or Immortal, but recently I’ve been trying different civilizations out on Deity. I’ve succeeded as a number of leaders already (Alexander was a breeze, Hungary was too, also Rome, Germany, and Nubia), but I’ve ground to a halt with Norway. I really liked the idea of role playing a ‘vikings’ style, but I’m finding that Harald is just .... well.... awful. Small continents map, find a promising spawn, rush Longboats, try to find someone to pillage & prey on. Oh dear, no one has spawned near the coast, my melee ships are now useless, what a waste of early game investment. Never mind, I’ll switch to horsemen to pillage on land, and I’ll send in a few of these funky new bezerk dudes I’ve got. Oh dear, I’ve fallen so far behind in tech that the AI now has crossbowman, knights, and coursers, my army has been destroyed, the bezerks did nothing. I give up the game. Try again, more or less same thing happens. Try again, and the third time I get further - far enough that I manage to kill my neighbour, Gorgo, in the medieval era - but I find out that Korea is in the game, she already has cuirassiers and cavalry, so I give up.

So I guess I’m saying that Norway’s bonuses seem really, really niche, and difficult to bring into play without falling behind. You guys are clearly very good at the game so you know how to ‘do’ his niche playstyle. But you’re forgetting that for most average joes Norway is still garbage - or at least, that there are way easier leaders to win domination with.

TL;DR: you‘re all good players so Norway seems strong to you, but he’s not strong at all in the hands of an average player like me.

John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29] [28+1] I’m not really fussed who I vote up, so I’ll just go for the guy I won my easiest domination game as - Matthias.
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [12]
Shaka/Zulu [24]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [4]

 

[fredrikslicer]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]+1 = 20 War carts are great for early game
Harald Hardrada/Norway [5]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]-3 = 1 I don´t feel he is as strong as the rest and the means of turning him into a military powerhouse seems more like a neat trick if you screw up a religion game then a primary plan
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [12]
Shaka/Zulu [24]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [4]

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [2] (5-3) I’d be happy to see him go. Pillaging can’t be the whole basis of your warfare plan, and he lacks any other meaningful bonus to combat strength, science, or production. As the person two above said, there are far easier / better dominators remaining. (I still think Harald is better than Philip, though...)
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [4]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [13] (12+1) Just checked my hall of fame, my quickest domination victory ever was Korea. If you gain that early science lead, you’re unstoppable: it’s essentially the same as having a permanent +10 or +15 combat strength buff.
Shaka/Zulu [24]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [4]

 

[comatosedragon]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [13]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [2]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [1] (4-3) I think Victoria is slightly better for domination. Pax britanica can be a very powerful tool in getting the ball rolling.
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [13] (12+1)
Shaka/Zulu [24]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20] (19+1) She was inadvertently left off the list since my last post 24 hours ago .... sorry folks. Anyway; She gets an upvote for the insanely powerful People of The Steppe (double horse units); Killer of Cyrus is Icing on the cake.
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [4]

 

[ADHansa]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [14] (13+1) Not the easiest engine to start but oboy does his industrial complex rule. I can easily use it to take bake lost momentum and in the end churn out tanks, biplanes, bombers, and arsenal ironclads and battleships and nukes to blitz the world.
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [21]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [2]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [13]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [1]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [13] (12+1)
Shaka/Zulu [24]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [1] (4-3) Spreading my love for naval civs.

 

[Josephias]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [21]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [14]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [22] (21+1) Hadn't upvoted him yet, but having a highly mobile army with increased strenght and self-reinforcing is quite an asset. Maybe "lacking" (in the sense of being in par with other civs) with regards to the siege department, as cavalry is not normally what you expect to use when facing cities, but strong nevertheless.
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [2] -- Given the support received in the last points, I'd concede Harald may deserve a bit more opportunity. Nevertheless I insist a strong navy makes establishing early footholds in different continents redundant. You can probably better counter loyalty issues by conquering two-three coastal cities at once (which is probably one of the main strenghts available to Harald, with his stronger and cheaper melee ships), than by establishing a preliminary foothold (that then would probably imply you need to start conquering inland, depriving Harald of the use of his navy strenght). Nevertheless.... (see two lines below)
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [10] (13-3) ... if I say I prefer a full-scale disembark that spending resources in maintaging different continental footholds (remember the resources you spend sending settlers to different continents are settlers you don't develop in your capital continent, and while Maori may have an edge here due to rapid sea movement, probably it takes still more time to settle across the ocean than in the plains six tiles away), then Kupe's strenght is reduced to the Toa, which at this point in the list is maybe not too much.
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Peter/Russia [1]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [13] (12+1)
Shaka/Zulu [24]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [1]

 

[CrabHelmet]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [22] (21+1) Literally the least complicated Civ ever. Your build order is Slinger -> Slinger -> Slinger -> Pitati Archer -> Pitati Archer -> Pitati Archer -> oh what's this they're all dead.
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [14]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [22]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
Harald Hardrada/Norway [0] (2-1) ELIMINATED So, comparatives again. Comparing this to the other flagging Civs, Victoria, and to a lesser extent Curtin. I like Harald, I like pillaging, but his time has come, because ultimately... a focus on pillaging just isn't that useful for winning Domination. It's amazing for being a pirate in the early game and bringing back wonderful booty to set yourself up, but if I'm playing Domination, I want to, ultimately, be able to actually use the cities I take fairly quickly and create the snowball. If I've pillaged them and wrecked all their infrastructure, they're not much good for that. I see him as a bit more like Gorgo, where you want to be in a lot of wars, but not actually, at the end of the day, conquer that much stuff. War is useful as a means to achieve other goals, rather than in and of itself. Victoria is a lot more... hit and miss, and how good she is, is hugely dependent on the very arbitrary way the Civ map draws continents. However, again, her ability to get units is just a bit better than Harald, and her ability to hold cities is just a bit better than Harald too much of the time. Curtin isn't domination-focused, but is just generally so strong he can do a bit of everything and honestly can hang with a lot of the more domination-focused Civs anyway, not sure why he's flagging. And so ends the Viking Era.
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [10]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [13]
Shaka/Zulu [24]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [1]

Edited to remove Peter, who was deleted earlier.

 

[Leucarum]

I think Peter should have been eliminated by @comatosedragon as he was already on 1?

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [22]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [14]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [22]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [10]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Philip/Spain [12]
Seondeok/Korea [13]
Shaka/Zulu [25] (24+1) Getting armies before everyone else is definitely a fun time for you.
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]
Victoria/England [0] (1-3) ELIMINATED - Just going to put Victoria out of her misery. She has been dramatically improved but still isn't a top tier dom civ.

 

[CrabHelmet]

@Leucarum you're quite right, Peter did die a while back.

With Victoria gone it looks like we're starting to get into really difficult territory now! All the remaining Civs have strong Dom games in my view, don't think there's any really obvious flaggers.

 

[TCBB]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [22]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [14]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [23] (22+1) I’d rank him higher than Montezuma, for sure. Cavalry are the best class of unit in almost every way, even with the nerf to sieging. Movement is supreme in warfare (c.f. a certain Bolivar).
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [10]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Philip/Spain [9] (12-3) I think he has to be the next to go. Conquistadors are great, but they arrive late. And because Philip has the slowest start of anyone remaining, by the time you reach conquistadors the AI has probably got field cannons & cuirassiers & cavalry.
Seondeok/Korea [13]
Shaka/Zulu [25]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]

 

[The Highwayman]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [22]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [14]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [23]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kupe/Maori [10]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Philip/Spain [6] [9-3] Conquistadors are strong, but there's a cost for having to rush a religious unit for every one of them. Much of Spain's kit is map dependent, such as the continent splits or your opponent perhaps not even having a majority religion for you to gain the benefit from El Escorial.
Seondeok/Korea [13]
Shaka/Zulu [26] [25+1] While the Conquistador gets +14 from Spain's abilities, all of Shaka'a units get +15 an era earlier without the opportunity cost of either founding a religion or spreading someone else's and burning a bunch of faith on religious units instead of supplemental military.
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]

 

[bengalryan9]

Harald - widely viewed as a top tier civ, but apparently not top 15 at any victory condition in Civfanatic's eyes. Makes sense!

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [22]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [14]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [23]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
John Curtin/Australia [8] (7+1) Better at domination than Korea - better production, better economy, better culture, better UU, and can keep pace in science - yet somehow (as always) way behind Korea-the-meme in points. Makes sense!
Kupe/Maori [10]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Philip/Spain [3] (6-3) Since we were told he's worst than Harald in a post where Harald was getting voted down, I guess I'LL be the one to actually vote him down now that Philip's actually outlasted him. Makes sense!
Seondeok/Korea [13]
Shaka/Zulu [26]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]

 

[Jewelrunna]

Alexander/Macedon [27]
Amanitore/Nubia [22]
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cyrus/Persia [20]
Frederick/Germany [15] (14 + 1): As I've said before, Frederick offers a great deal of versatility in a Domination game thanks to that free policy card, and no Civ in the game can outproduce him. It's not even close. You'll field a huge army faster than any other Civ in the game, barring maybe Scythia. Immensely powerful at the victory condition.
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [23]
Gilgamesh/Sumeria [19]
John Curtin/Australia [8]
Kupe/Maori [7] (10 - 3): The Toa isn't enough to cut it as a top-tier domination Civ at this point in the game. There's something to be said about being able to cross oceans immediately to expedite your conquest, but let's be honest here--you're more than likely going to take your continent first, and then the rest of the world later. It's time for Kupe to go.
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [29]
Montezuma/Aztec [23]
Philip/Spain [3]
Seondeok/Korea [13]
Shaka/Zulu [26]
Simón Bolívar/Gran Colombia [36]
Suleiman/Ottomans [30]
Tomyris/Scythia [20]
Trajan/Rome [17]