Don Quijote rules the world - SG for RFC

I'll post comments on the save tomorrow.

Who's the next player? Jusos, Ororo?

You haven't played yet, the original order was:

Roster:
1. Ororo
2. blizzrd
3. nody
4. Ichabod
5. Jusos2108
6. Kurokami
7. Science Rules

So you're next if you can play today, if not, then Ororo will play tomorrow, then you and finally me.


And I have to agree that Nody made some bad judgement calls and didn't really listen the common opinion. Hamburg and Casablanca are just waste of resources and stability.
 
Well, I think I'll only be able to play in the weekend. So, after Ororo set, you could play if you want, Jusos.

Personally, I prefer that we discuss things a little longer, trying to reach a consensus on what to do next. That way we avoid making mistakes (like I did losing our starting galley to a barb trireme) and we could learn. So, after Ororo set I could post a plan for my set and ask for suggestions, then play it in the weekend.

What do you guys think?
 
Well, I think I'll only be able to play in the weekend. So, after Ororo set, you could play if you want, Jusos.

Personally, I prefer that we discuss things a little longer, trying to reach a consensus on what to do next. That way we avoid making mistakes (like I did losing our starting galley to a barb trireme) and we could learn. So, after Ororo set I could post a plan for my set and ask for suggestions, then play it in the weekend.

What do you guys think?

I do agree strongly. I know you guys are eager to play and I'm happy with that, but sometimes it's better to discuss strategy first instead of playing hastily (obviously this does not include blizzrd and jusos). I've also noticed that some of us can only play at specific time during the week, so some discussion might help with that as well...
And yeah blizzrd, I understand those mistakes now, but I just hadn't found them that important before you explained more on their impact. This only proves that I'm not the level player as you are, but again: that's the reason why I created this. To learn where we make mistakes. (I didn't know about Hamburg though as I can't look at the save just yet)
 
I agree that discussion is always welcome and we did discuss what to do with the Incas and Aztecs, maybe we should've talked about Germany more, although IIRC Blizzrd mentioned that Hamburg should be razed.

However, I could play today, but I can't play on friday or saturday (Ororo is playing tomorrow), so I assume that nobody minds that I play my set now (considering Ororo's earlier comment).
 
Yep, you can play today... Also what tech are you gonna take from lib? I requested a picture of tech window but it was followed by quite a lot of posts so you guys probably have missed it...
 
Yep, you can play today... Also what tech are you gonna take from lib? I requested a picture of tech window but it was followed by quite a lot of posts so you guys probably have missed it...

EDIT: Uhm sorry for posting it twice... Anyone knows how to remove a post?
 
that's the reason why I created this. To learn where we make mistakes. (I didn't know about Hamburg though as I can't look at the save just yet)

Discussion is good.

After Liberalism, our next most important techs are Printing Press and Constitution. The AI will always tend to prioritise learning the Military Tradition and Military Science paths and our next target for espionage should be one of these two techs, probably from France. Turkey is so weak that I don't think they will ever get into a tech lead ahead of France.

EDIT: Uhm sorry for posting it twice... Anyone knows how to remove a post?

Only a mod can do this AFAIK. All you can do is just edit your duplicate post and delete the text. Typically I've seen this replaced with (duplicate post) or similar.
 
I was wondering about Liberalism tech too. Does Japan have education? If no AI has it, we could tech liberalism until 1 turn and try to get a bigger tech later (biology would be very nice, but I guess it's stretching it too much).

Civics wise, I guess it's still worth adopting Resettlerment, but I don't think we should adobt bureaucracy. Aa far as I know, adobting bureaucracy with so many cities would be bad for our stability. We could change it together with caste system, try to get some gp in the next turns (or pacifism, but not both -> No, no, pacifism would kill us with that many units), and change it back to slavery together with the economic civic.

Do we want our next GP to be another great spy? Maybe a GSci is better to make an academy in Madrid? Or a GArtist to Culture Bomb Amsterdan (I think that would be very nice to do)?

If Casablanca is so bad, can't we let a barb take it and raze it? Would that affest our stability much?

About where to settle next. North American cities? Habana like Ororo said? Montevideo/Buenos Aires? Caracas?

After conquering the last Incan cities, what do we do with the conquistador units? Get them to europe to help our wars there? Use them to defend our new American cities? Take a detour to Japan and get the philippines back?
 
Civics wise, I guess it's still worth adopting Resettlerment, but I don't think we should adobt bureaucracy.
There is a stability penalty for Bureaucracy for us at this time because we already have too many cities. Right now, we just need Resettlement before we found any more cities in the New World. We don't need Caste System.

Do we want our next GP to be another great spy?
Yes. Stealing Military Tradition and/or Military Science would be the next use of a Great Spy.

If Casablanca is so bad, can't we let a barb take it and raze it? Would that affest our stability much?
As bad as Casablanca is for our economy, losing a city to barbs is worse for our stability.

About where to settle next. North American cities? Habana like Ororo said? Montevideo/Buenos Aires? Caracas?

We need to beat the French to New Orleans to lock out the mid-west. We need to beat the English to Florida. We need to beat the French/English to the Caribbean islands.

There isn't going to be much competition for South American land though, what with Portugal so backwards and the Dutch gone. Maybe the British and French could colonise some cities in the NE of SAmerica, but this isn't really that much of a priority for us to beat them to these lands.

After conquering the last Incan cities, what do we do with the conquistador units?

Some will need to be positioned in Mexico to deal with the Dog Soldiers. The rest can head for Austria. The Phillipines can wait until we at least have Biology and can make a city in this area more worthwhile by clearing some jungle.
 
Somehow people keep forgetting the rule of 10-12 cities and reaching at least Assembly Line, Fascism, and Radio, if not flight, before going on a conquest/domination splurge.

If I were to predict, you guys will win some time in the 1950's or later, maybe lose a city to instability en route.:lol:
 
Turn 0 I whipped and micromanaged some cities. After that I did a lot trading:

Cancelled:
sheep to Khmer for 2gpt
wine to Russia for 4gpt

New deals:
corn to India for banana
crab to Russia for 5gpt
wine to India for rice
sheep to India for 7gpt
cow to Khmer for 3gpt

Then I traded Optics for Music+world map+35gold with Rome. We started with 1852gold and -186gpt at 100% science and ended up with 2467gold and -176gpt. After that I removed our garrisons from Hamburg.

Turn 1 Germany took Hamburg back and we raze it, while killing three German knights in the process, no casualties. We research Liberalism (I suspect that England might have been teching for it) and I choose to take Military Science with it. It is much more expensive than Printing Press, which we start teching now (4 turns).

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0003-10.jpg


Turn 2 Veracruz starts building the Forbidden Palace.

Turn 3 German mercenary War Elephant kills our conquistador outside Berlin.

Turn 4 We bomb Berlin. Otherwise uneventful.

Turn 5 We research Printing Press, next Constitution. Our conquistador kills the annoying Kazak War Elephant.

Turn 6 We raze Arequipa. We attack Berlin, both cannons survive and amazingly: no casualties.:D Many of the attacks only had 60-70 odds to succeed. Germany loses two longbowmen, a landsknecht, two crossbowmen and two knights.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0004-14.jpg
Civ4ScreenShot0005-13.jpg


Turn 7 Berlin gets a lot of reinforcements, but so do we! Fresh from slaughtering some dog soldiers.:p I use up our Great General by building a Military Academy in Madrid.

Turn 8 We capture Berlin, but I choose to sign peace, since another german stack is nearby and our units are tired. Where do they get these units?? Germany will most likely collapse in the near future. We also capture Limatambo, Incas collapsed a turn earlier.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0015-3.jpg
Civ4ScreenShot0007-11.jpg
Civ4ScreenShot0008-8.jpg


Turn 9 England, Mali, Ethiopia and Portugal offer to became our vassals. I reject them all. Mali, England and Ethiopia were at war with some nations and Portugal is not worth it. We adopt resettlement and free speech.

Turn 10 We found Nueva Iberia and Rosario, because they will become very strong. I don't found Habana yet, because we have quite many cities and the maintenance and tech costs will get to us pretty soon. Greece trades Banking+world map+some cash to us for Education. I also do some other trades and we end up with 1957 gold and -198gpt at 90% science.

Our Empire!

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0018-3.jpg
Civ4ScreenShot0019-3.jpg
Civ4ScreenShot0017-5.jpg
Civ4ScreenShot0016-5.jpg


Notes and suggestions:

-The nations mentioned above are still eager to vassalise, so if we want to, we can pick some of them. This should be discussed.
-A explorer is touring the world in caravel and popping all the goody huts (lots of cash so far) while at it. It is currently is New Zealand, so take it to Australia next.
-France is struggling (I just stole some money from them), so I believe that we should choose another target for our espionage points. However, there aren't really any good options.
-Habana could be founded when the Forbidden Palace is finished or if somebody threatens to found a city nearby. Madrid is building a settler for Caracas.
 
England is usually a good choice for a vassal because their tech rate and stability map is rather large. The problem is you need to have a spare ship to ferry spies to Plymouth or London, and when America appears, you should be ready for war with American rifles.

The other choice is America when it appears, because you don't want trashy mountainous or tundra-full cities up north and west, and it can absorb them for you for land.

Either Mali or Ethiopia should be vassalized. You don't want any other cities in Africa, with the possible exception of Durban. Either one will absorb a lot of land for you for domination. (I would personally choose Mali because he's a tech whore and won't be able to trade anything away if you direct his research carefully)

Do you know the trick of bribing AI to peace and then vassalizing their opponents who may still want to vassalize voluntarily?

It's rather late--you guys still don't have Chicago up and running...
 
If France is on the way down, then England is likely our biggest tech rival in the long run. Vassalising them would be a good idea in my opinion, as we could then direct their research to assist us via espionage - important because of our already sizeable empire and larger tech costs.

Mali has the Spinal Minaret, this might be worth taking?
 
@AP: Yes, I know the trick, but I wouldn't worry too much about their opponents though; they are fighting Arabs and Caliphate of Iraq.

We can found Chicago within the next 4-5 turns, if we choose to.

@Blizzrd: I agree, however, we must make sure that we beat them to the spots we want for ourselves. Although, that's hardly an issue either. Mali is a bit iffy, since it would require a lot of razing, again. So maybe we should just vassalise them and England? IIRC England was only fighting Vikings.
 
Good set, Jusos!

Although I rather had seen you razing Berlin instead of Hamburg and you just founded Rosario on future corn!

Not very wise to found a city on corn if there is a resourceless tile next to it.

Also, good call on adopting Free Speech with Resettlement, although I would've like you to have adopted Bureaucracy and Theocracy as well, since we lost Vassalage and with Constitution we can adopt Representation which gives a stability bonus in combination with Bureaucracy.

The penalty doesn't become too big if we adopt US with Free Speech if we have Democracy.


Mali has the Spinal Minaret, this might be worth taking?

I agee, but I think we also need Christianity in that city to make the SM work.
 
Nody, you still don't understand what domination entails. It means the least number of cities to encompass the largest land area and population. Every extra city you have extra increases your cost of science and stability. Yes you can found Montevideo and Buenos Aires separately, but as the billion population thread shows, 1 city with 30 pop is much larger than 2 cities with 15 pop.
Rosario happens to encompass ALL the future food resources in that area. It's the only logical choice if you're playing domination. You're going to grow that city to around 25-30 just by working all the other resources there. What's one less corn farm when you're going to have many other foodstuffs around?

Representation and bureaucracy with >12 cities is suicide in the long run. You cannot tech to radio that quickly to get Cristo Redentor. Madrid is not THAT productive to warrant bureaucracy.
 
Although I rather had seen you razing Berlin instead of Hamburg and you just founded Rosario on future corn!

Not very wise to found a city on corn if there is a resourceless tile next to it.

Hamburg and Amsterdam overlap badly, which is no-no in a domination game. I am glad that I was able to get rid of Hamburg, unlike Casablanca.

And I know very well were the resources spawn and that's the exact spot were I wanted to have Rosario (BTW, we should rename it Buenos Aires). AP made it quite clear why Rosario is the best possible choice around there, so you can read his post to figure out the reasoning.

Also, good call on adopting Free Speech with Resettlement, although I would've like you to have adopted Bureaucracy and Theocracy as well, since we lost Vassalage and with Constitution we can adopt Representation which gives a stability bonus in combination with Bureaucracy.

Thanks. Bureucracy is totally useless in a domination game and with a barely size ten capital. Why would we want theocracy??:confused: We have enough troops, so we don't need the experience points for anything. However, we just began to build up our empire, so we desperately need buildings to our newly founded cities. That's why we must stick with OR for quite a while, possibly until we win domination (the rules say that we must remain christian). If you would've adopted those civics, I would've demanded you to redo your set...
 
Mmmm mixed feelings from my set...I haven;t found any city and yet managed to spend most of our treasury... Maintenance costs are killing..but that should change after we build Forbidden Palace...please, consider it as a top priority now.

Report:

Turn 1:
Conquistador in Neuva Iberia killed an attacking native dog soldier.
Madrid Finishes settler, Christian missionary next. We sell our map for 15 Gold. We upgrade our crab deal with Russia from 5 to 6 gpt. We trade our surplus deer to France for 3gpt.

Turn 2:
An Iron Mine near Madrid was destroyed by enemy infiltrators, we send workers to rebuild it immediately.
Santiago finishes Jewish Monastery, next Jewish Temple - it desperately needs Culture.
Settler arrives to Neuva Iberia and waits for the Conquistadors to heal up so he'll be able to claim Chicago.

Turn 3:
Madrid finishes Christian Missionary, next settler (for Denver eventually). Santiago finishes another Christian Missionary, next Galleon cos I think our navy needs reinforcements. Missionaries are loaded on a Galleon, which is sent towards Mexico (especially Veracruz needs Christianity, so it can benefit from OR). Amsterdam whips a Jewish temple.
Our pikeman attacks a barb war elephant near Mellila as I don't want any of our improvements to be pillaged.
Russia declares war on Germany.
I redirect our Espionage against England.

Turn 4:
Amsterdam starts building an Opera house. It has very decent food surplus so we might use it as a draft city when we adopt Nationhood). Plus it gives quite a lot of culture.
We upgrade our horse deal with Vikings from5 to 6 gpt. Since we have a surplus silver, I decide to trade it to China for silk.

Turn 5:
We finally finish Constitution and begin on Economics - that GM would really help our treasury.
The Khmer and the Turks want to become our vassals.
Madrid finishes settler, next Taj Mahal. Berlin comes out of revolt and I immediately whip a Theatre. Rosario whips a theatre as well. Neuva Iberia whips a work boat.
We spread Christianity to Veracruz and Yaqui.

Turn 6:
Cadiz finishes university, next Christian Missionary. Neuva Iberia finishes work boat, next theatre. Berlin whips Christian Monastery. Rosario finishes theatre, next work boat.
Our Musketman from Neuva Iberia kills native dog soldier.
An English Galleon has reached the shores of South America...we'll see where it drops a settler.
Bad news! We spawn our next GP and it's a Scientist! I'd like to discuss what do do with him so I just send him to Madrid to sleep.

Turn 7:
Santiago builds a Galleon, next Jail. Mellila finishes Observatory, next Christian missionary. Berlian finished Christian monastery, next Library. We ask Alex for 30 gold and he agrees.

Turn 8:
Cadiz finished Christian Missionary, next Barracks. I set the slider on 0% science to get some gold.

Turn 9:
According to Herodotus's list we're the 2nd mos powerful Civilization with China being 1st and India, surprisingly 3rd.
We form a defensive pact with Alex (++Stability)
Mellila finishes Christian Missionary, next Market. We sink barb Trireme near Casablanca. Santiago whips Jail, (we can now assign 3 spy specialists). Berlin whips Library. Amsterdam whips Opera House
We re-establish contact with Babylon, but they don't have anything interesting for us.

Turn 10:
Santiago finishes Jail, next Bank. Amsterdam finishes Opera house, next Bank. Casablanca finishes Christian Temple, next Christian Monastery. Berlin finishes Library, next Christian Temple. Neuva Iberia finishes Theatre, next Christian Monastery.
Alex wins the AP elections.
We sell our maps for a total of 160 Gold. We trade Corn to China for 8gpt. We upgrade our horse deal with Japan from 7 to 9gpt and our wine deal with England from 5 to 6gpt.
I set the research to 90% so we should be able able to finish Economics in 2 turns.

To-do List:

1) Finish to Forbidden Palace ASAP (you can even starve Veracruz to speed it up)
2) After finishing the FP, found Chicago, Denver and Habana.
3) Assign 3 spy specialists in Santiago in Turn 0 (I forgot to do this).
4) Decide what to do with Great Scientist.
5) Use a GM from Economics to get us some gold.
 

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