Don't like current DIFFICULTY SCALING;AI is cheating

[Voli]

I never liked the idea that difficult levels give bonus capacities in AI. This reminds me of the AI fair cheating of Civ2.

Instead, I would like to see this time an AI that will have the same capacities with any other player, and nontheless will play in a clever, utterly competitive way.

Don't you agree?

Did they make any changes on this issue in Civ4?

 

[Own]

I don't agree, I'd feel more satisfied beating an AI with a 4 build rate than an AI with a 10 build rate that was "smart."

 

[Vael]

Don't you think everyone would prefer a 'smart' AI over one which cheats? Even the programmers?

 

[PeteT]

I would like to see this time an AI that will have the same capacities with any other player, and nontheless will play in a clever, utterly competitive way.

In other words you want an AI that's as smart as a human player. I can't remember where I read this but:

Remember, if we ever do succeed in programming an AI that can think for itself, it might decide that it has better things to do than play computer games.

The scary bit concerns the question of what it might decide to do.

 

[Vitor Shen]

But this as changed already. In the previews hte developers mention lots of times about the tuning of the AI, so it respects your borders, is not aware of the whole map so they allways know where there are places to place cities and so it doesn't cheat as well.

I really hope so because there's nothing more frustrating than unrespected borders.

 

[N3pomuk]

I don't agree, I'd feel more satisfied beating an AI with a 4 build rate than an AI with a 10 build rate that was "smart."

NO exactly not what I want, this just turns the whole game into a bludgoning match, which at 60% resource disadvantage, is neither fun nor realistic.

 

[Brain]

Perhaps anyone would be interested in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=119963

 

[Hyronymus]

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

 

[Smidlee]

I never liked the idea that difficult levels give bonus capacities in AI. This reminds me of the AI fair cheating of Civ2.

Instead, I would like to see this time an AI that will have the same capacities with any other player, and nontheless will play in a clever, utterly competitive way.

Don't you agree?

Did they make any changes on this issue in Civ4?

The reason to give AI bonus is because there isn't really any way to make the AI smarter especially in a game like Civ4 where there so many options and strategies. So as you learn the holes in the AI programming you increase the AI bonus to help cover these holes in it's programming. the AI was improved in Civ3 it didn't take players long to exploit these changes. Example : it seems to be a good idea to program the AI to attack the least defended city yet once player realize it was program to do this they could easily use it to their advantage.

The idea that fans can rewrite the AI does have promise of different AI programs but I wouldn't expect a AI program to be much better than the original AI. AI doesn't think ,it's runs on patterns. So it more like not making the AI smarter than being able to change it's pattern to make it less predictable.

also the idea making Civ 4 more multiplayer friendly sounds promising to play real intelligents. Let's hope they do this well.

 

[Own]

But it's not possible to make the AI smarter than a human (who understands the mechanics of the game and has a decent amount of experiance). And letting the AI cheat brings unlimited height to difficulty. In civ3, there are only so many things you can do. So the AI can only be so smart. Without the AI cheating, Firaxis may not be able to make a difficulty harder than Emperor without the AI cheating.

 

[Sullla]

Everyone would LIKE to have an AI that doesn't require advantages/cheats to be competitive with the best players, but it's considerably easier to talk about it than implement it. Voli, if you have extensive experience with AI programming, I'm sure that Firaxis would be willing to let you help them work on the Civ4 AI to make sure it doesn't have to "cheat".

 

[BearMan]

Hmm, IMHO Civ is just a complex game of chess.

If i remember correctly, the number one chess player
in the world is a supercomputer (or 2nd) ?

Anyway, this tells me that with well written AI source, the difficulty meter could in fact be a non-cheating process time meter.

 

[NP300]

Hmm, IMHO Civ is just a complex game of chess.

If i remember correctly, the number one chess player
in the world is a supercomputer (or 2nd) ?

Anyway, this tells me that with well written AI source, the difficulty meter could in fact be a non-cheating process time meter.

You can't compare chess to civ. Civ is much more complex than chess. Chess has a board with a limited number of squares and a small number of playing pieces. The number of squares is always the same. The starting positions are always the same. And you cannot build more units (except when a pawn reaches the other end).

In contrast the playing board in Civ has tens of thousands of squares. There are many more units in civ. The playing board is not always the same, as the terrain varies. The starting positions also vary. Thus, Civ is far less predictable than chess, orders of magnitude less predictable. It is orders of magnitude more complex than chess. The difference in complexity between Civ and Chess is much bigger than the difference between tic-tac-toe and chess.

It took some very good programmers and some of the most powerful computers to even be able to challenge the chess grand masters. And even then they cannot reliably beat the grandmasters. It is no wonder it is hard to design a competitive AI for a game that is orders of magnitudes more complex than chess.

 

[Darwin420]

They should make cIV with 'learning' AI, that analyzes your turn sets after each completed game. I know there were some games with limited success many many years ago. This would ensure that even if you have an easy time at first, the AI will start learning how you play, and be able to modify its 'patterns' to beat you.

Perhaps put a limit on what routines the AI can run, though, so you still have difficulty levels.

 

[bkwrm79]

In other words you want an AI that's as smart as a human player. I can't remember where I read this but:



The scary bit concerns the question of what it might decide to do.

I believe a truly smart AI would just want to play Civ.

 

[BearMan]

You can't compare chess to civ. Civ is much more complex than chess.

Then we agree that civ is compared 2 chess more complex

The number of pieces and squares etc, doesn't really affect the way you write AI source, neither does the fact that each square has different variables attached 2 it, it just affects the calculation speed. However boring 2 implement, a good ai source for a turned based board game is in it's core the same as an AI for another board game (eg. chess).

 

[joycem10]

The scary bit concerns the question of what it might decide to do.

Find and terminate Sarah & John Conner?

 

[RoddyVR]

Then we agree that civ is compared 2 chess more complex

The number of pieces and squares etc, doesn't really affect the way you write AI source, neither does the fact that each square has different variables attached 2 it, it just affects the calculation speed. However boring 2 implement, a good ai source for a turned based board game is in it's core the same as an AI for another board game (eg. chess).

well, if you're willing to buy a super computer to play civ, and let the AI think for 3 years on each turn, then ok, you can have a "non cheating" ai in civ 4.

it will analize every possibility, cut off the stupid ones, and pick the best ones from the rest.
but considering how much more complex Civ is then chess, it will take months or years for the AI to realy do its turn.

 

[BearMan]

well, if you're willing to buy a super computer to play civ, and let the AI think for 3 years on each turn, then ok, you can have a "non cheating" ai in civ 4.

it will analize every possibility, cut off the stupid ones, and pick the best ones from the rest.
but considering how much more complex Civ is then chess, it will take months or years for the AI to realy do its turn.

I'd say it's possible without the supercomputer and 3 years a turn
2 have a non cheating AI, that is.

 

[warpstorm]

To have a non-cheating decent AI, yes. To use a game tree type of approach, no. I'd use a rules based approach.