Doto [AdvCiv ModMod]

Hi Keldath, I may download it and give it a go when you finish the next update. I'm really liking advciv but it would be interesting to try out a few new options. Have you got a change-log or description of the mod beyond the first post?

Personally I'm more of an emergent systems type of person than a choose a civilization with a large number of pre-set options player. So I'm happier seeing one new well integrated rule than a dozen new civs.
 
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hi friend,

i finished doto 1. 09.1, just didnt get to upload it yet. ill do so in a day i hope.

after many years with civ, i came to think that a leaner abundance of content may cloud the good stable balance of civ vanilla. so i went witg f1rpo mantra and rebuilt my mod.
i prefered to invest on more dynamic optional rules
 
****UPDATE****

hey,
version 1.09.1 is updated in the front page.
Includes advCiv 101 . i didnt create a patch for 109, cause i got lazy.
but if you have a game play going, it should not break save game if you update the mod and install it again.

enjot.

@TheOtherOne - im sorry i wasnt good at keeping track of my changes....thats my weakness. for gameplay content its mostly as advciv.
i added 5 unique units per civ, 2 new civs, religions, some buildings, maybe a few techs, resources, improvements,
the rest are game options.
feel free to ask about anything,
 
Hello! To install the mod i simply have to unzip it and put it in the mod folder right? Somehow, the game crashes in the civilization choice screen when selecting anything below Dutch Empire...
 
So I've played several games with the DOTO mod and I gave it alot of thought but the time it would take to go over every thing is more than I want to invest in this response and I've taken a vacation inbetween so it's all a bit hazy. I'll give my general thoughts in this not very well written post.
There are alot of improvements that make the game better and I think should be included by default. I definitely see the makings of an "advciv plus" (A name I thought to give but it seems someone else has already released an advcivplus mod mod) that would be my default way to play. I really like some features (or, at least, the concepts behind them) such as (and in no particular order):
The restriction of the number of world wonders to cultural level
The need to provide certain anemities to progress up the city scale
An attempt to modify city expenses allowing the development of cheaper to manage, smaller, lower tier cities vs the more developed major cities.
The attempts to make siege weapons more authentic and combat more interesting by having zones of control.
The way combat influences cultural borders
The attempt to increase the variety of civics.
The attempt to differentiate religions by having their buildings provide different bonuses

There are a few things I don't like so much but most of this is due to the inclusion of ideas that haven't been fleshed out. The only features I genuinely dislike are the unique units which in some cases seem no different from the generic unit. I personally dislike the idea of improving civ by just throwing in more "unique" civs, units, and buildings.

However, ultimately, while I like alot of what was done, at least conceptually, I find myself returning to ADVCIV because so much of what has been inlcuded hasn't been tested and in many cases is very 'work in progress'. For example there being more religions than slots on the religion panel. I had one game where a rival civ switched my religion (I had the dominant religion and the religious wonders) causing me to lose my bonuses and I couldn't switch back as my religion wasn't available on the religion panel.
I also wonder if the AI can deal with the zones of control as normally when the AI declares war in ADVCIV they have a plan and actually do something while in DOTO there will be be AI vs AI wars where nothing seems to happen.
The attempt to modify the financial system is present at the early stage but doesn't seem to lead anywhere. The fact that there isn't any documentation just makes it all more obtuse.

My final judgement is that I think you need to start from scratch. Split the mod into all its components and make sure each component is complete and integrated into the base game.Then, one by one, put them back together into a cohesive whole leaving out the incomplete elements. Then document it (at least very roughly). At that point have a stable complete, integrated version of the mod and experimental versions where you try out new features.
 
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hello there friend,

first, i really appreciate you playing the mod and taking the time to write a feedback.
over the years, the thing that lack me the most was feedback from players, so when i do get, i implement and listen carefully.

i will address the items you described:
restriction of the number of world wonders - i thought it was indeed nice - took the idea fron history rewritten
finance - something i worked on and reworked many times, probably still more to do.
siege weapons more authentic - released a few versions to it, more to do in terms of ai, but i think its not bad - need more angles on what to balance with it.
zone of control - aka super forts - not my mod of course but i liked the idea of it.
way combat influences cultural borders - influence driven war - love it - its a very old mod,
increase the variety of civics. - one of the things i worked on the most in this mod. im very pleased with the structure but much to balance there.
differentiate religions by having their buildings provide different bonuses - here i didnt put that much thought, i just added mostly for variety.

---
I personally dislike the idea of improving civ by just throwing in more "unique" civs, units, and buildings.
i haven't done so much aside from 5 unique units to each and some religion restrictions. what do you think should be done?
-- religions than slots on the religion panel - thats a bug - once upon a time it was ok - although i think advc added an option to play with the display of icons in the bug menu.
--I also wonder if the AI can deal with the zones of control as normally -> that is a good question the mod uses code i didnt write. usually i didnt play with this option on for years so possible that the ai has some issues.

AI declares war in ADVCIV - that is advc originated - i used version 1.01 - f1rpo released 4 new version after this that handle issues found with ai war .
i hope to merge it soon.

-- The fact that there isn't any documentation just makes it all more obtuse. -> yes i agree with that, its my weaknesses part, if i had indeed start a new mod i would have documented it better.
but due to very low mod time , i did what i could and focused on modding. all these years, i worked on the mod mostly alone. f1rpo helped me with a billion issues though.

My final judgement is that I think you need to start from scratch. Split the mod into all its components and make sure each component is complete and integrated into the base game.Then, one by one, put them back together into a cohesive whole leaving out the incomplete elements. Then document it (at least very roughly). At that point have a stable complete, integrated version of the mod and experimental versions where you try out new features.
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i wanted and started to work on a civil mod scenario - and progressed but, life....
i love civ4 moddding but i cant work on it much for the time being.
all i can is to improve doto here and there along with advc civ.
when i did play some Doto - i didnt turned on most of my game options, just several - somehow i like the core of advciv :)
 
keldath said:
hello there friend,
zone of control - aka super forts - not my mod of course but i liked the idea of it.
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By zone of control (ZOC) I mean that enemy units can't just move past each other. I think civ4 does naval combat really badly. It is basically impossible to stop land invasions because naval units get so many movement points they can just sail accoss a channel or sea, past your navy, and deposit troops. With zone of control it at least forces them to go around or attack.

keldath said:
differentiate religions by having their buildings provide different bonuses - here i didnt put that much thought, i just added mostly for variety.
Click to expand...
I can tell it was a bit rushed, but its still a good idea that differentiates religions from each other. Ultimately religions in civ4 are very simplistic and maybe there isn't much you can do about it but for gameplay mechanics being able to choose between +money or +science or +espionage is nice. I also like how the viking religious buildings gave a defensive bonus. Quite appropriate : )

keldath said:
i haven't done so much aside from 5 unique units to each and some religion restrictions. what do you think should be done?
Click to expand...
I'd remove the religion restrictions. While I saw the logic in a couple cases it mostly seemed arbitary and I don't think it does anything to improve the game. Ideally religions would be associated with civics which I think they did in later versions of CIV, which would by default block certain leaders from certain religions.
As for the the 5 unique units . . . I'd just drop them. It makes it more confusing by having so many different names and graphics. I noticed a few of them didn't even have any special abilities or graphics so I don't see the point. If you really like it then maybe streamline to 2x units per civ that have the most historical flavour. The original intention was to provide a special unit+building from the era that the specific civlization was at its peak.
Having 5 UUs spread all over history, especially for civs that went extinct centuries ago is kinda odd.

keldath said:
--I also wonder if the AI can deal with the zones of control as normally -> that is a good question the mod uses code i didnt write. usually i didnt play with this option on for years so possible that the ai has some issues.
Click to expand...
ZOC is one of my favourite ideas but ultimately people that play advciv play for cohesive mechanics and AI (at least that is my impression). If the AI can't use new mechanics then it may turn away those people who were attracted to advciv in the first place. Afterall if people are attracted to large amounts of features the AI often can't effectively use, then people will go for all the other mods available for civ4.

keldath said:
yes i agree with that, its my weaknesses part, if i had indeed start a new mod i would have documented it better.
but due to very low mod time , i did what i could and focused on modding. all these years, i worked on the mod mostly alone. f1rpo helped me with a billion issues though.
Click to expand...

I genuinely see the best civilization experience I've had hiding in your mod, if only it was streamlined a bit more to only include that which contributes the most, bloats the least, and the AI can use.
My background is a Phd in bioscience and I work as a science teacher creating curriculums. I can easilly spend 20+ hours on a 1.5 hour class. Planning, writing, re-writing, teaching, re-thinking, re-writing, teaching again, restructuring . . . . That's life. Crazy hours into little details that other people don't see, but they feel the quality of the lesson. I can't expect you to devote that to a mod-hobby for game that is almost 20 years old. . . . I imagine without player feedback it just becomes a hobby you put time into and then try new things for fun. Without hearing from players giving it a go, then why put in all the stress-filled work of pairing it down.

keldath said:
i love civ4 moddding but i cant work on it much for the time being.
all i can is to improve doto here and there along with advc civ.
when i did play some Doto - i didnt turned on most of my game options, just several - somehow i like the core of advciv :)
Click to expand...
I appreciate all the work you've put into it. Everyone needs down-time and civ 4 with advciv is great downtime for me. DOTO broadened it by showing possible what-ifs : ) When I have kids, and they are old enough to play, I intend to be having a few games of advciv 15 years from now : )
 
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When it comes to making civs different honestly I say go all out or not at all. FFH did it well in that they made each civ play differently. And if you look at FFH you don't need all that much to do that. A forbidden unit here and there, a couple unique units to top them up etc. But it needs to be done carefully and with mechanical gameplay in mind. You have to look at each civ and design a unique playing style for them and than add a couple small touches here and there to make that style overpowered compared to others so as to steer playing that civ toward that style and thus make playing each civ a unique experience.

Just adding units to add flavor or that have like +1 to a stat won't do. If you want to do that, you might as well just stick with the regular 1 UU and 1 UB and focus on making the game more diverse in other ways.
 
hey folks,

p land invasions because naval units get so many movement points they can just sail accoss a channel or sea, past your navy, and deposit troops. With zone of control it at least forces them to go around or attack.
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yes and no - advc introduced a delay turn between land fall of transports, exactly due to this. i think i turned this on.

Ultimately religions in civ4 are very simplistic
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its a matter of how deep we want the religions to be a different factor between, simple means some buildings and some values. its possible to define them as some play orientation -
like vikings more on defense , some could be more for gold, others units, some give other techs so on.
i just didnt put much effort there.

I'd remove the religion restrictions
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its all game option - DOTO theme is all about optional play styles.
i added the 5 units long log time ago, main reason is that i love seeing a large variety of models. each units have different stats to make the civs be more asymmetrical i hoped.
basically, i can make the units optional with the originals as alternatives.

ZOC is one of my favourite
Click to expand...
i think the ai can cope, as i think it uses the path generation to create proper paths for units. it wont probably "think" to deploy units all over the borders to create a unit barrier...
but i guess it should be handled quite alright by AI.

I genuinely see the best civilization experience I've had hiding in your mod, if only it was streamlined a bit more to only include that which contributes the most, bloats the least, and the AI can use.
My background is a Phd in bioscience and I work as a science teacher creating curriculums. I can easilly spend 20+ hours on a 1.5 hour class. Planning, writing, re-writing, teaching, re-thinking, re-writing, teaching again, restructuring . . . . That's life. Crazy hours into little details that other people don't see, but they feel the quality of the lesson. I can't expect you to devote that to a mod-hobby for game that is almost 20 years old. . . . I imagine without player feedback it just becomes a hobby you put time into and then try new things for fun. Without hearing from players giving it a go, then why put in all the stress-filled work of pairing it down.
Click to expand...
well thats very kind. i would have liked it to be much much more polished.
so for the past years, since i joined up on advc, i tried to stick to the advc core. adding things in a very delicate way.
but still left the mod parts i added, making them optional as compromise.
everynow and then, im coming back to c4, its in my blood for ever i think.
so changes are something i can do according to feedbacks.
everytime i got one - i listed and do.

I intend to be having a few games of advciv 15 years from now : )
Click to expand...
same here :) thank you.

hi PPQ,
Just adding units to add flavor or that have like +1 to a stat won't do. If you want to do that, you might as well just stick with the regular 1 UU and 1 UB and focus on making the game more diverse in other ways.
Click to expand...
FFH had its lore, civs are fantasy civs and unique play style is easier to create.
vanilla civ is harder, cause all humans :)
i agree that if i had started again modding from zero, i would have re thinked the units and civs.


----
I started the merge of advc 105.
shouldnt take long.
please guys if you have some stuff you want me to change, anything that comes in mind, let me know.
 
If you plan on going over the mod I think it would be easier, at least for me, for you to give a particular segment of the mod and I can try to give feedback on that specifically. Otherwise I've given general feedback but there's far too much to give details for everything.
 
hey,
thank you first of all.
the part that i want to invest in is my ranged immunity and its sub options (retaliate, collateral..etc).
im looking to see how the AI handles it. in wars, unit stacks, defense , offence and such.

if you up for it, very cool.
 
So you have merged, but want feedback on archery before you release it?

Can you elaborate on all those range-related check boxed for the mod. Confirm if I understand correctly:

Ranged immunity: If activated, if my archer uses a ranged attack against another archer, the other archer won't fire back?
Ranged retaliate: if activated, archers can attack multiple times?
No ranged collateral: if activated, archer's ranged attack only hurts a single target, not multiple targets in the stack?
Random hit: if activated, the target hit by the archer's ranged attack is randomised from the stack?
Random damage: Self explanatory.

Edit: Just started a game but archers don't seem to behave any differently. No new options for a ranged attack.
 
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Hi,
You got it slightly wrong...
Only seige units have ranged attack.
Which means that is catapult a attacks none siege unit, it will not sustain damage as in a normal battle.
If retalliate is on, and a siege unit attacks a seige unit, there is a chance that the defending seige unit will attack back.
No collateral is as you wrote. It will lower the attack power effects .

The idea to give seige units to freeley damage other units and weaken them without the fear of loosing that unit.

Randoms, means not every seige atrack will hit/damage.
 
i got a bew idea i wann try out:

city states:

single city civs (1 setller on start)
city will have 3 size tiles ability growth
the civ will get boosts the make it not number of city handicapped
different unit Prereq (sometimes when there are bonus reqs)
some other rules in terms of development and maybe diplo or attitude.
 
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