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Double Unique Units

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Yesod, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. MasterMishi

    MasterMishi Warlord

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    Japan got westernised by USA post WW2. They modelled Japans economy on their own. Japan just did it better. Outside the city they are as eastern as you can get.
     
  2. Lance of Llanwy

    Lance of Llanwy King

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    I would hesitate to characterize their politics as "democratic". At least not until very recently. Single-party rule is not evidence of a vibrant political system.
    Nor was the choice to align with the U.S. altogether their own, for obvious reasons.

    As for the buildings business, I buy into the idea that your base-buildings are very western-centric, so it makes sense that non-European civilizations have a higher incidence of unique buildings. It's somewhat problematic, but probably unavoidable with a design team composed primarily of Americans.
     
  3. davetaylor

    davetaylor Chieftain

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    wow this thread is full of tin foil hat activty.
    Moderator Action: This negative label is still not allowed here.
     
  4. I_qua_I

    I_qua_I Prince

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    Never heard this phrase before. What does it mean?
     
  5. awesome

    awesome Meme Lord

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    basically, conspiracy theorist.
     
  6. Anondod

    Anondod Chieftain

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    There's also a lot of stretching of the concept of a rule. To quote Tage Danielsson's chapter on the exception that proves the rule in Grallimatik (from memory, and in my own inferior translation):

    I.e., the fundamental assumption isn't true, unless Japan, the Ottomans and the freaking Mongols are counted as Western civilizations and Russia as Eastern.

    The list of two-UU civs (including all DLC) is:
    • America
    • England
    • France
    • Germany
    • Greece
    • Japan
    • Ottoman
    • Rome
    • Mongolia
    • Spain

    Japan and Mongolia are unquestionably non-Western, and if Arabia is non-Western so is Ottoman.

    And the one-UU civs are:
    • Arabia
    • Aztec
    • China
    • Egypt
    • India
    • Iroquois
    • Persia
    • Russia
    • Siam
    • Songhai
    • Babylon
    • Inca
    Russia is definitely Western, and if you want to make the argument that Japan has been Westernized so has India.

    Yes, there's a strong tendency for Western civilizations to get two unique units, but it's nowhere near as clear-cut as the original poster made it seem.

    I also agree with what was said above: the buildings are based on Western standards to a far greater degree. Also, the ones with two UU's tend to be the ones that are either most famous for their martial culture or have been around for a long time (in Civ tech terms, not years), giving them more chances for "cool" military units.

    Personally, I find many of the choices weird - the Companion cavalry for Greece could easily have been replaced by a school or political building (as Greece is actually famous for being the founders of Western civilization), and the Roman ballista is IMO far less distinctive than their forts, gladiator games (Colosseum, anyone? The Colosseum?) and eclectic choice of gods, and neither American unit is as clearly American as the Marines, shopping malls or fast food joints.

    But now I'm just ranting. So I'll take a deep breath, calm down and get back to work instead. :)
     
  7. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    Maybe the point should be instead of western civilizations having 2 UU, All European civs (Bar 1) have 2 UU.
     
  8. Anondod

    Anondod Chieftain

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    Yeah, but you also have several non-European civs having two UUs, so it becomes hard to formulate a good conspiracy theory based on that. And when you start to have four or five exceptions going both ways it's not so much a rule with exceptions as a bunch of exceptions with random patterns.
     
  9. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    Yeah, I know. What I was meaning is that is a better point than 'All western nations have 2 UU'
     
  10. Stretchy Man

    Stretchy Man Chieftain

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    Honestly bro, I don't care that you love Civ 5 and still play it. Some of us feel cheated and just want to get some amusement out of our $50, so please stop the pointless defence of its flaws in every other topic and let us take the piss in peace. It's pretty simple really, if you like it, don't read the civ 5 section.
     
  11. Mr Jack

    Mr Jack Chieftain

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    Have a look at the "generic" buildings everyone gets - they're pretty much all based on the European model. The reason the UBs aren't on the western civs is because the buildings that could be given as UBs are already there and available to all or implemented as specific World Wonders. And, really, some of them are pretty tenuous anyway: is a Bazaar really different from a Market?
     
  12. Feyd Rautha

    Feyd Rautha Prince

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    I think the main reason for this is one based on timeframe. Other than China and Russia (two civs with geographic defenses that generally protected them from having to have a post-unification "unique unit") the one UU civs are all short-lived. There is no second UU because the civilization wasn't around for more than an era.

    Conversely, the civs with two UUs that are also extinct are civilizations who can field both of their UUs at the same time to show their dominance during a particular era. The exception would be China, Russia, and India, but looking at their history there was one period of unification that was then defended easily due to natural terrain. Persia is an odd bird here, but putting down tribes and admistering them only required their immortals. Other than Greece does history record any major conflicts (read: defeats) for Persia?

    Anyway, I'm obviously witht he camp that holds history as the reason and not some critique of the East.

    On a side note, I'm defintely someone who really thinks there should be 2 UU and 1 UB for each civ.
     
  13. Anondod

    Anondod Chieftain

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    That's a... weird attitude. I've never encountered the idea that griping about a game you don't play should be the main function for a forum dedicated to that game before.
     
  14. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    I am not sure why this matters at all. In most cases, the UB is far better than any UU available. The Wat is currently the single best building in the game. Burial Tombs, Paper Makers, and Bazaars are right up there too. In fact, the list of "overpowered" civs usually starts out "Siam, Babylon, India,..." with France being the usual European inclusion. The list of weakest civs usually includes Ottomans, Germany, England, and America. If anything, I would say that this iteration of Civ is better than previous ones at creating a fully unique flavor for each in terms of traits and units (but by no means fully realized due to the awkward AI).
     
  15. Mr Jack

    Mr Jack Chieftain

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    This is true, I think primarily because once available unique buildings continue to add value throughout the game whilst unique units only have value until a better unit comes along.
     
  16. Anondod

    Anondod Chieftain

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    Units being useful also requires you to be in a war when you have them.
     
  17. Yesod

    Yesod Warlord

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    I'm not sure this is the case anymore. Obviously 1UPT makes for more of a warmongers game, especially when you consider all the non-warmongering material that was stripped from the game. My original thought was that one of the designers may have thought that, with far less units being fielded and the game's focus on combat, he would stack the European nations. I haven't really played enough (nor will I, likely) to say whether or not double UU's are so great. At the same time, the attitude that designers of strategy games seem to take toward non-western civilization (Europa Universalis is worse) makes it easy enough to believe.

    Promise you, I wasn't conjecturing about aliens or Illuminati...just posted an observation.
     
  18. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    In theory, interesting. In practice, doesn't really work at all. Most of the best UUs in the game are non-Western, such as the Chinese crossbow, Siamese elephant, Songhai cavalry, Keshiks, Khans, etc. Most of the worst UUs are European, such as the Landsknecht, Panzer, B-25, Minuteman, Ship of the Line (navies suck in general), etc.

    I would say that this game really shows zero preferential treatment towards any geographic or cultural group, unless it is revealed that the entire Firaxis team is Babylonian and Siamese.
     
  19. I_qua_I

    I_qua_I Prince

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    :lol:, the image my mind associated with this statement made me laugh.
     
  20. Boogledygook

    Boogledygook Chieftain

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    I would say it's because the nations of Europe, which account for the majority of "Western" Civs, along with the US, are the ones who built the basic buildings. Stock Exchanges? Stadiums? Windmills? Observatories? Although these buildings are now common throughout the world, they all originated in Western Civilizations. However, because the other Civilizations of the world are more culturally diverse than the Western ones, they have more unique buildings, while Western Civs are more easily differentiated by their militaries. Along with this, the Western Civilizations have been militarily dominant in history. Maybe it's some of this stuff...
     

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