Doughnut Files Term 7 - 9

[fe3333au]

This is for Diplomatic Issues concerning the Nuts

 

[fe3333au]

Nuts are in a peacefull building stage.
They are watching the war and are debating whether or not to join KISS against TNT.

They have requested us to consider a peace treaty with them.

 

[fe3333au]

and the interview continues ...

Ok then, moving along

Q4- We have been getting your Ivory for a little while now, but we have yet to figure out any uses other than piano keys, have you got any suggestions?

Reply

hmmmm ... let me sip from one of your tasty vintages while I think ... yes delicious ... I must grudgingly admit that you guys have developed a far superior beverage than the rude juice swilled by the KISS vintners.

Now back to the question ... Ivory has many uses ... I'll give you two additional ones to muse over ...

The first is to build towers ... yes you heard me correctly ... and these towers while splendid in sight are also fragile ... and are especially useful as diplomatic gifts to send a subtle message to the more cocky of your neighbours.

With the next and I trust that I don't have to draw a diagram to illustrate, so just let me say in certain circles Ivory is referred to as the Lady's Friend
>>>>>>>>

Out of interview ... and more official.

We are interested in hearing more details of your offer for peace ...
What exactly would you like this treaty to entail?
For what length of time?

We would also like to know what your view on the northern conflict is
Do you consider the KISS action just?
Want are your plans regarding the conflict, to sit a watch or perhaps to hammer home the final coffin nail?

Regards

Feaurius III
Still Foreign Minister

 

[fe3333au]

Responce to the out of interview

As you may or may not be aware i am out of government now, retired to some beach just north of Crunch, so the official correspondance should be with Kuningas, Nobody and killercane.
"Unofficially" we are looking for a peace treaty in the range of 50 turns as yours is with KISS and our too with KISS is about the same. As for KISS actions, while we are shocked and a little disturbed at its suddeness at the same time its difficult to feel sympathic towards TNT as they did the same to us. As for military action, as i said in a previous discussion the switch to republic has left us in an unprepared state militarily to take offensive actions, so it would be difficult to join in, but at the same time we do not want to KISS to large a foothold as that would pretty much give KISS the game, so if TNT does continue to collapse we feel we must act to ensure they don't grab too much territory.

I like his 'straight talk' style.

Interesting that they have 50 turn peace with KISS as well

 

[fe3333au]

and on with the interview ... this is fun ... I really like the format maybe we could also have a vox pop section in our own paper

Ladies toys.... hmmm interesting, will we set about production immediatley.

Q5- So what do you think of KISS idea to use Ivory in doughnuts?

Reply

KISS do what with Ivory ?!!!

Are they Nuts !!!

Ohh ... ha ha ha ha ... excuse the pun dear Sir ... tee hee

Look nothing that KISS does will ever surprise me ... I mean having the likes of the great Admiral_K leading the KISS mission abroad ... and ... and ... and then calling their unprovoked attack against TNT a 'scientific expedition' seems to me the ultimate in ... ummm .... disinformation.

I could actually tell you horror stories about this KISS leader ... many of our wholesome and pure womenfolk have been forced to enter service with the 'Silent Nuns of Meleet' after an encounter with this ... ummmm ... person ... Did you know that he also refers to himself as Igor ??

However I digress ... it must be your great wine ... ha ha ha

So to answer your question ... well if KISS want to use Ivory on Doughnuts, well I only hope that they do it in private ... and away from the eyes of their innocent young.

 

[peter grimes]

So KISS locked in two 50-turn peace dealies prior to attacking TNT. If we and DNUTs had been sharing info on the peace talks we could have forseen the blitz. Likewise, I'm no longer surprised about the generous division KISS gave us: They had probably just signed the deal with DNUT, so they wanted to nail us down ASAP so they could attack TNT.

I'm wondering if a joint DNUT/MIA assault on KISS on turn 168 is in order

Peace with DNUTs
I think we should lock DNUTs into a long peace deal contingent on not attacking TNT. They already realize that they don't want KISS too big, so they could be receptive to this. We should get something hammered out soon.

 

[Chamnix]

I’m not sure – a peace deal is practically worthless to us. We are strong compared to Dnuts and technologically advanced. If they attack us, they will start our Golden Age. I don’t think Dnuts are as crazy as TNT to think that they can conduct an overseas invasion under those circumstances. If Dnuts wanted a military campaign, they have a much weaker neighbor on their own continent who would clearly be a much better target.

By signing a long-term peace with Dnuts, we limit our options and really don’t gain any more security than we already have. Dnuts gain a lot of security because they have to worry about us right now. We would be letting them build infrastructure and ignore military for no real benefit to MIA.

 

[General_W]

I agree 100% (with Peter! )

Let's strike while the iron is hot. Dnuts are inclined towards peace anyway (with their new Republic) let's get a peace deal that mandates their peace with TNT also.
Brilliant!

And then we can start slowly working Dnuts towards a joint assault on KISS. We'll have to be delicate about it. If we push them too hard, too fast - they may leak the whole thing to KISS.

 

[fe3333au]

I assume you X-posted with Chamnix

I stop there for the moment while I put it all in the paper to see how it all fits. I will do this over the weekend and send you an advanced copy for your approval.

Replied

No problems Robi_D

I have enjoyed the interview ... and the <hic> refreshments immensely ... no need to send a draft as I will certainly read all about it

I would have you add a disclaimer though, that the interview expresses solely the thoughts of Feaurius III ... and certainly are not to be taken as an official MIAian response. <hic>

>>>>

Also sent this

MIA query ... just wondering can we get an official response to when exactly KISS and Doughnuts entered into a 50 turn peace ... we are very much interested in the timeline ... for us, the Peace ends in turn 166.

 

[fe3333au]

Hmmmm ... very interesting ... regarding the peace between KISS and Nuts

Well again this is unoffical, but the trety is not fixed on a turn basis as such, but a the agreement is upto a certain technological discovery, which by estimation will be done around the same time (somewhere around turn 170) given our current progress.

Any thoughts on which linchpin tech the treaty is based on?

 

[Chamnix]

It must be limited by Dnut's research - KISS should get all the way to Military Tradition well before Turn 170. Dnuts should certainly have Education by then - maybe 1 tech beyond that? But Education makes more sense than Banking or Astronomy (since they are after a split in the tree). I would guess Education, but I think they will reach there before Robi's estimate of turn 170.

 

[azzaman333]

It must be limited by Dnut's research - KISS should get all the way to Military Tradition well before Turn 170. Dnuts should certainly have Education by then - maybe 1 tech beyond that? But Education makes more sense than Banking or Astronomy (since they are after a split in the tree). I would guess Education, but I think they will reach there before Robi's estimate of turn 170.

Maybe the economies of each of our opponents are worse than you are expecting.

 

[fe3333au]

Hmmm ... KISS may be turning it down to fill the coffers?

Yet they have not changed in military strength that we can see ... we will need this intel from TNT as well so we can cross reference.

 

[Chamnix]

Maybe the economies of each of our opponents are worse than you are expecting.

That is certainly possible since I've overestimated their economies before. Looking back Dnuts discovered Monarchy (and presumably started Monotheism) on 104. They exited anarchy into Republic on 107. On turn 117, Robi D said they were about 7 turns from Monotheism. If Monotheism is about 17 turns, then what techs could they get in 46 more turns (from discovering Mono on 124 until 170)? It seems like too many turns for 2 techs, but maybe not enough for 3 techs.

KISS really should be able to reach Military Tradition within 50 turns. We could do it in a little over 30, and with KISS spending the next 20 turns in their Golden Age, they should have no problem getting there in 50 if they want.

 

[Chamnix]

Any peace deal with Dnuts should include a guarantee of the wines - since Dnuts are now getting 2 luxuries from KISS (and KISS may also take over a source of ivory soon), we don't want KISS to convince DNuts not to trade with us.

 

[General_W]

So does that mean you're now onboard for Peace Mr. President?

If we've got more of a concensus... I'll write a rough-draft letter for review and edit.
(I'm not sure if that's incentive... or a threat! )

 

[Chamnix]

Not necessarily. I'm a little confused by our strategy lately. The team seems to be in favor of peace with Dnuts, but nobody liked my suggestion of working out tech deals with Dnuts. We are promising peace to everyone and playing a research game, but we are also setting ourselves up to pit our research ability essentially by ourselves against the combined ability of Dnuts and KISS.

I still don't necessarily think that we should go for long-term peace with Dnuts, but if we do (which seems to be the way the rest of the team is leaning), then we better make sure we are guaranteed everything we need before we renounce violence and leave ourselves impotent.

 

[General_W]

:warning: Massive post…

Well, I for one, am not looking to renounce violence.
Rather, I’m trying to lay the groundwork for a likely war against KISS in 45 turns.

I’m certainly not opposed to some tech deals with the Dnuts… but we just have to be careful that we’re not aiding KISS in a round-about way.
Seems like the safest way to do that, is to try to send the nuts up the Military Tree. Offer to make them a good deal for Invention.
Invention is worth 1320 beakers. We could offer them Theology (now worth 1050) and Chivalry (worth 840) in exchange for their promise not to attack TNT.
We can sell this as – we can’t give them a military tech only to see them use it to seriously aid KISS in the world domination.

Biggest problem with that – is KISS could conceivably get Chivalry out of the Nutters… giving them a half-way build to Cavalry… bad news.

Our other option is a bit more extreme… but I think I like it better.

We offer Nuts Theology (1050) AND Education (1320)
For
Invention (1320) AND their oath not to attack TNT.

Now – that’s an insane good-deal for the Nuts – but it does a couple things for us. It cuts KISS out of trading up the peaceful side of the tree – swing Nuts to our side – it frees up TNT to focus on fighting and slowing KISS down, and guarantees that Nuts won’t be going for the Great Library.

This deal would bring the Nuts essentially up to tech parity with us (circa turn 121)… but their research is nowhere near ours. By the time they actually get Invention… we’re probably almost done working on Banking with Astronomy already in our pocket. Letting us then jump to the military side… going gunpowder, Chemistry, and then for Military Tradition or Theory of Gravity depending on the situation.

There’s nothing to tie our hands from making a Theology/Education trade with the Nuts… and we could in one move cut the KISSers out of the tech trading game for quite some time.

I don’t think TNT will have a problem with it when they learn we’ve used it to secure their southern border… and since we’ll still be taking them with us out of the Middle Ages into the Industrial ages.
Heck, with this deal… TNT could just forget research until we get to the Chemistry stage. They can just focus on harassing KISS till then.

I just suspect Dnuts will want some kind of peace deal along with trading with us, abandoning any hopes for deals with KISS, and securing their border with TNT. If this plan goes through, I don’t see how a peace deal with them hurts us at all.

Anyway - What do you all think?

Spoiler Possible Letter to the Nuts :

Dear Dnuts,

Again, we’d like to thank you for the warm relationship we’ve been able to cultivate over the years. All of us in Athens have grown to love your grapes – and we always value a good friend.

Let us cut to the chase.
The aggressive land-grab actions of KISS have us a bit worried. While we have no doubt that TNT was in great need of a humbling experience, if KISS comes to dominate the top half of the world, both our empires will be in great peril as the Gallic Idiots look to cement “domination” of this world at both of our expenses.

Both of our peoples share a common love of peace – and that is what we wish to speak with you about. How can our two nations leverage our love of peace in the face of two warlike and bloodthirsty countries in the North?
We have a proposal.

We would like to start planning for a trade of technology. We are interested in swapping our knowledge of Education (which we’re currently working on acquiring) for your knowledge of Invention (as soon as you can get it).

Now – both of these techs are worth 1320 beakers… but we recognize that we are the more advanced people - thanks mostly to your unfortunate encounter with the 2nd head of the 2 headed warmongering monster of the north. Thus – we will also give you our knowledge of Theology (1200 beakers to us. Worth slightly less to you).
We feel that this is a very generous offer – and we’re happy to make it to good friends such as you.

Of course, we have one string to attach to it – but we are hopefully you will not find it burdensome. If we are to agree to such an imbalanced trade, we want to be sure it won’t aid KISS. We don’t want Education to aid KISS directly by trading or indirectly by bolstering you for an attack on TNT.
It is our great hope that these 2 warmongers will fight each other and drag each other down. If you enter the war against TNT – it will practically gift-wrap TNT lands for KISS! This would obviously be a tragedy for both our peoples.
Also – if KISS acquires education without researching it… then the war with TNT won’t be doing as much damage to their economy as it could.

Thus – we’re willing to offer you both Theology and Education for Invention and your promise to not trade Education to KISS or start a war with TNT. (If they declare on you, then obviously you’re under no obligation to us to stay at peace)

We’re happy to write up all the formalities and discuss any details… but we wanted to just raise the idea with you, and see what you think.

Naturally – we’re also interested in extending our wines/ivory deal and defacto peace agreement. Let us know if you’d like this to be a part of any tech swap deal… or something separate all together.

All the best,
May peace always favor your lands,
Your friends… MIA

Anyway - What do you all think?

 

[fe3333au]

I am not eager to persue Peace with Nuts.

Why?
Because they have already been courted and seduced by KISS, the unexpected news of an extended science treaty and the additional trading of dyes with KISS last turn ... Proves It!

What about National Security?
Nuts will never attack us by themselves at this stage.

What about the benefits of trading luxes, knowledge?
We already have this ability as KISS have no access to Ivory ... yet.
We seem to have the option of being able to trade knowledge that the Nut's research and perhaps after a period that which they get from KISS.

What about the safety of our scouts?
We have almost mapped all the black in Nutland that we can without entering their territory ... they in turn still have a presence is our lands that can give them little data as we have been excelently expanding.

Will an extended peace affect the one with KISS?
I trully suspect any peace we try to negotiate other than an agreement not to attack each other will be superceded by the one they have forged with KISS.

Therefore I see no reason to even persue a contract for peace unless they approach us first with something other than Let's have Peace ... because we virtually have it already. Regarding any future tech trade ... we must add a caveat of NO on-trading to KISS.


But we need to persuade them not to attack TNT
This is the big issue ... I think that they may already have made up their minds regarding this ... the extended peace probably runs out in 4 or 5 turns ... and I don't really know what we could do to disuade them other than with a bribe of knowlege that ultimately will benefit KISS ... I am getting distinctly nervous about TNT's ability to survive even a campainge against KISS all that is needed is for KISS to open up another front far from their initial landing spot.

TNT will then have their meager forces split 2 ways ... and additionally bolstering their southern assets due to the threat of a TNT attack ... that's the beauty of their plan, Nutters don't even have to enter the fray to weaken TNT ... if they do ... Bing Bing Bing GAME OVER for TNT

TNT also have a fractured government, many are even unwilling to offer the Nutters Gems for peace :crazyeyes: ... I am beginning to see these guys as a liability of any co-plan we may have! ... and a drain on our assets.

But I am not suggesting abandoning TNT ... I am asking the team to think just how much aid MIA is actually able to give ... short of threatening Nuts with war if they attack, we can only give aid in cash and intel ... intel that we are in the process of doing (I have yet to discuss with Defence but it may be wise to leave the Snarling Aardvark up north as a spotter for KISS fleets).

The issue of cash will have to be weighed up by the benefits that we gain.
If the war is only with KISS it plays an important part in distracting our Green nneighbours ... and also fostering a strong bond with TNT. If the Nuts join in, well without us joining the fray, the cash is then being thrown away.

Therefore I present a scenario, that would have to be perfectly timed ... and if anything, I know that this team is more than capable of achieving

A scenario I was musing about was ... which is the only reason that would require an extended peace with Nuts.

If KISS send another group attacking from another direction TNTs will begin the decline.
TNT's meager defence will be split in two directions and also with the threat of a possible Nut attack.

So with this background ... If things look that extinction is probable, TNT could give give us their cities.

KISS would be unable to attack, nor would Nuts ... TNT gain the knowledge that KISS have been thwarted (and Nuts if they too are attacking) ... MIA gain cities

This of course it would require TNT to accept ... So a treaty with TNT, in return for a set amount of cash and luxes from us per turn ... a clause in the treaty would be added that if TNT have lost a certain number of cities that they would hand the remaining over to us to prevent distruction from their enemies.

Another option is that MIA agree to sell back the cities if TNT DO prevail ... this would see MIA having a caretaker role.

Another option is that the money we send to TNT would be the same as the money that they would have added if they were still in control ... population increases would be a profit for us.


This is just musings ... but I think the ONLY reason to enter a long term peace with Nuts.

 

[General_W]

I am not eager to persue Peace with Nuts.

Why?
Because they have already been courted and seduced by KISS, the unexpected news of an extended science treaty and the additional trading of dyes with KISS last turn ... Proves It!

I'd say this only proves that Dnuts are looking to make good trades.
They obviously won't trade with TNT - and when they asked to trade with us, we told them no.
KISS was their only option!
If we offer them a really good alternative to KISS, I think there's a good chance they'll take it. It's worth a try! IF they say no, then we'll really know what's up.

What about National Security?
Nuts will never attack us by themselves at this stage.

Ok - I agree. I'm not really that gung-ho about a peace deal. I just think we should be open to one if it seals the deal of us peeling Dnuts away from KISS.

What about the benefits of trading luxes, knowledge?
We already have this ability as KISS have no access to Ivory ... yet.
We seem to have the option of being able to trade knowledge that the Nut's research and perhaps after a period that which they get from KISS.

If KISS is doing military techs, and Nuts are doing Peace techs, and KISS and Nuts are trading... where exactly is MIA going to fit into this?!?
This is the biggest hole in your argument.
If we can't get Nuts to trade with us instead of with KISS, we'll have nothing to offer them. They'll get what they need from KISS.
This is why I think it's so important to break up the KISS/Nuts trading scheme right now!

What about the safety of our scouts?
We have almost mapped all the black in Nutland that we can without entering their territory ... they in turn still have a presence is our lands that can give them little data as we have been excelently expanding.

Will an extended peace affect the one with KISS?
I trully suspect any peace we try to negotiate other than an agreement not to attack each other will be superceded by the one they have forged with KISS.

Therefore I see no reason to even persue a contract for peace unless they approach us first with something other than Let's have Peace ... because we virtually have it already.

I have no real disagreement with any of that.

Regarding any future tech trade ... we must add a caveat of NO on-trading to KISS.

You'll notice I DID include that restriction in my proposed letter to the Nuts.

But we need to persuade them not to attack TNT
This is the big issue ... I think that they may already have made up their minds regarding this ... the extended peace probably runs out in 4 or 5 turns ... and I don't really know what we could do to disuade them other than with a bribe of knowlege that ultimately will benefit KISS ... I am getting distinctly nervous about TNT's ability to survive even a campainge against KISS all that is needed is for KISS to open up another front far from their initial landing spot.

TNT will then have their meager forces split 2 ways ... and additionally bolstering their southern assets due to the threat of a TNT attack ... that's the beauty of their plan, Nutters don't even have to enter the fray to weaken TNT ... if they do ... Bing Bing Bing GAME OVER for TNT

This is why it's so important that we get a tech deal with Dnuts that ties their hands on attacking TNT AND ties their hands on trading tech with KISS.
I don't think the Nuts are eager to go to war (as per their chats) but they need just a little more incentive to not get sucked to the dark side. TNT is too dense to see this - so it us up to us to Tip the scales towards peace.

TNT also have a fractured government, many are even unwilling to offer the Nutters Gems for peace :crazyeyes: ... I am beginning to see these guys as a liability of any co-plan we may have! ... and a drain on our assets.

I couldn't disagree more strongly!!!
TNT could be the best thing that ever happened to MIA! We can get a Free IA tech from them, maybe a couple other techs if their war goes well, and best of all - they can be a constanat irritant and drain on KISS... our biggest enemy!
If we can keep them alive long enough to do all this, then TNT will gift-wrap this game for us!
TNT is not a drain! They are our Ace in the hole!

But I am not suggesting abandoning TNT ... I am asking the team to think just how much aid MIA is actually able to give ... short of threatening Nuts with war if they attack, we can only give aid in cash and intel ... intel that we are in the process of doing (I have yet to discuss with Defence but it may be wise to leave the Snarling Aardvark up north as a spotter for KISS fleets).

The issue of cash will have to be weighed up by the benefits that we gain.
If the war is only with KISS it plays an important part in distracting our Green nneighbours ... and also fostering a strong bond with TNT. If the Nuts join in, well without us joining the fray, the cash is then being thrown away.

Therefore I present a scenario, that would have to be perfectly timed ... and if anything, I know that this team is more than capable of achieving

A scenario I was musing about was ... which is the only reason that would require an extended peace with Nuts.

If KISS send another group attacking from another direction TNTs will begin the decline.
TNT's meager defence will be split in two directions and also with the threat of a possible Nut attack.

So with this background ... If things look that extinction is probable, TNT could give give us their cities.

KISS would be unable to attack, nor would Nuts ... TNT gain the knowledge that KISS have been thwarted (and Nuts if they too are attacking) ... MIA gain cities

This of course it would require TNT to accept ... So a treaty with TNT, in return for a set amount of cash and luxes from us per turn ... a clause in the treaty would be added that if TNT have lost a certain number of cities that they would hand the remaining over to us to prevent distruction from their enemies.

Another option is that MIA agree to sell back the cities if TNT DO prevail ... this would see MIA having a caretaker role.

Another option is that the money we send to TNT would be the same as the money that they would have added if they were still in control ... population increases would be a profit for us.

I'm really uncomforable with all this, and I think a lot of it is against the MTDG rules. Teams are not allowed to gift cities to prevent them from being captured by another team. If we tried this strategy, at the very least there'd be a huge stink in the UN forum.




Bottom line: * I think TNT is our best chance for dragging KISS down, and we need to help them stay alive and resonably strong to do it.
* Dnuts are the biggest threat for keeping KISS growing and powerful - therefore we need to steal them away from a close relationship with KISS.

We can deal with both situations by offering Dnuts an amazing tech deal with the requirement that they don't trade it to KISS and they don't attack TNT.

2 birds with one stone!