Doughnut Files Term 7 - 9

[fe3333au]

I'd say this only proves that Dnuts are looking to make good trades.
They obviously won't trade with TNT - and when they asked to trade with us, we told them no.
KISS was their only option!
If we offer them a really good alternative to KISS, I think there's a good chance they'll take it. It's worth a try! IF they say no, then we'll really know what's up.

We only declined with techs that were prohibited due to TNT agreement ... we have made noises in that direction but to date there has nothing worth discussing knowledge wise. We also don't need peace to trade ... we are currently sipping their wines after all ...

I couldn't disagree more strongly!!!
TNT could be the best thing that ever happened to MIA! We can get a Free IA tech from them, maybe a couple other techs if their war goes well, and best of all - they can be a constanat irritant and drain on KISS... our biggest enemy!
If we can keep them alive long enough to do all this, then TNT will gift-wrap this game for us!
TNT is not a drain! They are our Ace in the hole!

But just how much financial aid to we give??
If KISS seem like winning ... we have to look at when the cause is lost and what benefits we get to extend the game for TNT just to give KISS battle and slaughter fun.

I'm really uncomforable with all this, and I think a lot of it is against the MTDG rules. Teams are not allowed to gift cities to prevent them from being captured by another team. If we tried this strategy, at the very least there'd be a huge stink in the UN forum.

Is it against the rules ??
... if it is then ignore but I must admit I didn't check ... I was purely reacting to your, well my perceptiojn of anyway, over eagerness to get an extended peace with Nutters.

Bottom line: * I think TNT is our best chance for dragging KISS down, and we need to help them stay alive and resonably strong to do it.
* Dnuts are the biggest threat for keeping KISS growing and powerful - therefore we need to steal them away from a close relationship with KISS.

We can deal with both situations by offering Dnuts an amazing tech deal with the requirement that they don't trade it to KISS and they don't attack TNT.

2 birds with one stone!

I agree in principal but I feel that KISS and Nuts are tight ... and that any peace we get from Nuts will benefit them more than us.

 

[General_W]

I agree in principal but I feel that KISS and Nuts are tight ... and that any peace we get from Nuts will benefit them more than us.

Great!
Then just forget about peace. I'm sorry I ever brought it up!!

I'm really just interested in the tech swap to save TNT and ace KISS out of a trading partner.

If Dnuts turn us down... then we'll know you're right about the Nuts/KISS alliance.
But personally - I don't think they are that close. I think they'd take our deal. KISS won't ever give them nearly as good of a deal.

 

[peter grimes]

Bottom line: * I think TNT is our best chance for dragging KISS down, and we need to help them stay alive and resonably strong to do it.
* Dnuts are the biggest threat for keeping KISS growing and powerful - therefore we need to steal them away from a close relationship with KISS.

We can deal with both situations by offering Dnuts an amazing tech deal with the requirement that they don't trade it to KISS and they don't attack TNT.

2 birds with one stone!

Here here!! That is the very crux of the issue, nicely stated. I'm not crazy about bringing Nuts up to tech parity (for many reasons), but if it means that Nuts and MIA are way ahead of KISS tech-wise, that's really all that matters. We have to be careful to not let Nuts get too close to the IA, due to some sweet Wonders that we need to carefully time for ourselves, but that can be worked out down the line.

I like General_W's Option #2, though I haven't read his letter.

@Fe - I think there were some very strong assumptions you made, and I'm not sure I understand why you came to believe those assumptions. It seems like your argument was writing off many things that we simply don't know to be factual; and I'm not sure I am comfortable with your Scenario. But I'll look into the Ruleset later on tonight.

 

[fe3333au]

Sent off

Titled ... Missing in Action

Dear Nobody

We have lost track of our warrior who was wandering around your territory, can you pass on any information regarding his mysterious disappearance?

Also you mentioned in a previous letter that you were interested in a peace treaty with us.

We are always interested in peace therefore, could you send additional information as to what type of peace you would be interested in forging with us? Would it incorporate technology trading? How would this affect your relationship with KISS?

Regards

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Gives them the option of suggesting the peace that they want with us.

 

[fe3333au]

Great!
Then just forget about peace. I'm sorry I ever brought it up!!

I'm really just interested in the tech swap to save TNT and ace KISS out of a trading partner.

If Dnuts turn us down... then we'll know you're right about the Nuts/KISS alliance.
But personally - I don't think they are that close. I think they'd take our deal. KISS won't ever give them nearly as good of a deal.

I'm just presenting my bent on things ... giving other points of view to discuss ... no offense intended

Another thing to discuss in retation to that scenario ... do we 'discuss' or 'tell' TNT what we are doing?

 

[Chamnix]

I'm not sure who I'm agreeing with or disagreeing with right now, but I'll just post my thoughts, and I apologize if I am just restating something someone else said:

First, I am not opposed to a peace deal with Dnuts. However, a peace deal is worth something to them, but by itself it is virtually worthless to us. In order to give them a peace deal, we need something more than a warm fuzzy feeling or hope that "goodwill" will eventually pay dividends.

What can we get?

1. Safety for TNT. But really, I think we probably get this almost as well by refusing a peace deal with Dnuts - if we do not sign a peace deal after Dnuts requested one, would they feel secure enough to attack TNT?

2. Guarantee of wines. Certainly this would have to be included as part of a peace deal.

3. Tech trades - I think General_W mentioned something about MIA not fitting in because KISS is doing military techs and Dnuts are doing peaceful techs. Understand that Dnuts are only doing peaceful techs because KISS is doing military techs, and Dnuts are trading with KISS. Unfortunately, we are 1 turn late right now, but there is absolutely no reason Dnuts couldn't research Invention after Monotheism instead of trading with KISS.

I guess the ball is in Dnuts court right now regardless, but I thought I'd add my opinions to the mix.

EDIT - one other thing I meant to mention:

TNT could be the best thing that ever happened to MIA! We can get a Free IA tech from them, maybe a couple other techs if their war goes well,

At this point, I don't see us getting much of anything from TNT regardless of how the war goes. I can almost guarantee we will finish Education, Astronomy, and Banking before TNT completes Invention. What else could they get us?

 

[General_W]

I really agree with Chamnix and Fe.
(And thanks for the support Peter!)
I think the whole idea of just getting a peace deal with Dnuts was a straw-man from the beginning. If I gave anyone the impression I wanted a peace deal apart from some other concrete things – I apologize.

Dnuts now have Monotheism!!
I think it is more important now than ever that we get a letter to them RIGHT AWAY! If we want to have any hope of steering them away from KISS and into MIA’s web… we must strike now!

Here’s a revised version of the letter – hopefully we can get some kind of agreement on this asap and send it to the Nuts before they are too far invested in researching Theology and won’t switch.

-----
Dear Dnuts,

Again, we’d like to thank you for the warm relationship we’ve been able to cultivate over the years. All of us in Athens have grown to love your grapes – and we always value a good friend.

Let us cut to the chase.
The aggressive land-grab actions of KISS have us a bit worried. While we have no doubt that TNT was in great need of a humbling experience, if KISS comes to dominate the top half of the world, both our empires will be in great peril as the Gallic Idiots look to cement “domination” of this world at both of our expenses.

Both of our peoples share a common love of peace – and that is what we wish to speak with you about. How can our two nations leverage our love of peace in the face of two warlike and bloodthirsty countries in the North?
We have a proposal.

We would like to start planning for a trade of technology. We are interested in swapping our knowledge of Education (which we’re currently working on acquiring) for your knowledge of Invention (as soon as you can get it).

Now – both of these techs are worth 1320 beakers… but we recognize that we are the more advanced people - thanks mostly to your unfortunate encounter with the 2nd head of the 2 headed warmongering monster of the north. Thus – we will also give you our knowledge of Theology (1200 beakers to us. Worth slightly less to you).
We feel that this is a very generous offer – and we’re happy to make it to good friends such as you.

Of course, we have one string to attach to it – but we are hopefully you will not find it burdensome. If we are to agree to such an imbalanced trade, we want to be sure it won’t aid KISS. We don’t want Education to aid KISS directly by trading or indirectly aid KISS by bolstering you for an attack on TNT.
It is our great hope that these 2 warmongers will fight each other and drag each other down. If you enter the war against TNT – it will practically gift-wrap TNT lands for KISS! This would obviously be a tragedy for both our peoples.
Also – if KISS acquires education without researching it… then the war with TNT won’t be doing as much damage to their economy as it could.

Thus – we’re willing to offer you both Theology and Education for Invention and your promise to not trade Education to KISS or start a war with TNT. (If they declare on you, then obviously you’re under no obligation to us to stay at peace)

We’re happy to write up all the formalities and discuss any details… but we wanted to just raise the idea with you, and see what you think. (we see you just got Monotheism – congratulations! So we have rushed this letter so you can make an informed decision on your next research step)

Naturally – we’re also interested in extending our wines/ivory deal and defacto peace agreement. Let us know if you’d like this to be a part of any tech swap deal… or something separate all together.

All the best,
May peace always favor your lands,
Your friends… MIA

-----

You’ll notice I really try to paint KISS in the same light as TNT… hopefully we can get Dnuts to view KISS in the same lens as they see TNT… ie: not favorable.

No matter what, we need to act fast on this – or the Nutts are going to be really not excited about flushing some of their research on Theology down the drain.

Thoughts? Revisions? Comments?
@ Fe: This look acceptable?

 

[Chamnix]

If we are giving them Theology and Education, then I don't think they can be too upset about wasting a turn or two of research. I would also make them promise not to trade Theology to KISS.

 

[Chamnix]

On a different topic - our knight can board our galley this turn. Our galley could move across the strait but would end its turn in Dnut territory - do you want to clear this with them first? We got jumpy when their galley came into our territory...

 

[fe3333au]

Knight Travels
I see no need to inform Nuts of sea travel ... they never offered us the same curtesy, even when they landed ... so no need to ask permission.

Anyway nobodys PM box is full ... and I had to send to team g-mail, the above request for information concerning Heron's demise ... added to that is a request for them to expand what sort of peace they are hoping for.

We will continue our discussion but nothing will be sent until be get word back from them.


What would we want for Peace ??

1. No attack on TNT
... this will let them know we favour TNT, however we may be able to suggest it is more a case of KISS dislike.

2. Wines for Ivory
... given, they are running out of options to trade with KISS.

3. Technology
... still under discussion
... but a no KISS trade clasue would have to be added.
... however I suggest that for them to enter a trade deal with us, then thay would have to break a treaty with KISS. (we will see)

Just because TNT have researched Monotheism is no indication that they will now research Theology ... I see no grounds for this assumption.
Why?
Because Montheism is required for Knights and I think it fair to say that everyone knows that TNT have Chivalry.

4. Length of Treaty
... It will be interesting what they say.
... would we want a peace that exceeds the one we have with KISS?

 

[Chamnix]

Re: length of treaty - I would think if we are going to sign something, then it should be designed not to expire the same time as the KISS treaty, but whether we want it to expire well before or well after is up for debate.

 

[fe3333au]

Exactly what I'm thinking ... we don't want to be puppeted again

I just want us to 'really' discuss and look closely at all the pros and cons.

That's why it is better IMO, to get Nuts to supply more information, that way we can perhaps get a 'feeling' ... an 'inkling' of where they are coming from.

I'd prefer to send correspondence back and forth ... and get them to supply more info each time.

I don't want to rush into anything too quickly ... and certainly not suggest too much up front ... because I'm very concerned about KISS ... I'm interested in seeing if KISS get Monotheism next turn?

Also don't forget that it's a bloody good strategy for KISS and Nuts to align ... we know for a fact that they are together until some unknown far away technology is discovered and traded.

I would also like to get a big picture view of where our team is going ... Do we have a long term strategic plan? ... or are we purely reactive? ... or somewhere in between?

i think the latter but would prefer the former

 

[fe3333au]

Due to the extended fullness of nobody's PM box ... I sent to Robi_D

Sending again as nobody's PM is full ... have sent to g-mail ... but we would like a reply.


Dear Nobody

We have lost track of our warrior who was wandering around your territory, can you pass on any information regarding his mysterious disappearance?

Also you mentioned in a previous letter that you were interested in a peace treaty with us.

We are always interested in peace therefore, could you send additional information as to what type of peace you would be interested in forging with us? Would it incorporate technology trading? How would this affect your relationship with KISS?

Regards

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

I will pass it on. As far as i know when i checked the save a couple of turns ago there were some barb horseman in the area.

 

[Chamnix]

Received via gmail:

Your exploring warrior was attacked by barbarians. Couldn't stop them. As for our warrior "Simpson Probe" can we go north? We have to visit inside your borders for a turn.

We are working on the peace proposal. more about it later.

-kuningas

 

[fe3333au]

I personaly would prefer that they keep out of our borders ... as per their requirement.

However if we allow them we can on the condition that they allow us a once off infringement as well ... it may be an opportunity to get a look at the cities we cannot see in Nut territory (we see 2 cities but cannot see population)

Else we can allow it but channel them under strick instructions.

 

[Chamnix]

I think their warrior is entrapped by our culture already - at some point he has to enter our borders to escape. Sending him north is definitely preferable to south.

 

[fe3333au]

OK let's make it as quick a trip as possible ... straight line and out

 

[Chamnix]

Their warrior cannot go north next turn since we have workers there, but either NE or NW should be OK.

 

[fe3333au]

@ Chamnix ... Have you or will you send movement directives to D-Nuts?

 

[Chamnix]

I have not and will not unless you tell me to.