Doviello and Animal changes

[GIR]

...

As for the Doviello: A change from the team version slipped in there, is all. Doviello animal spawning has been redesigned for the new animals. May as well describe the changes here, as they're done. Have been for weeks.

• Doviello spawn function moved to CustomFunctions, split into doCityTurnDoviello, doChanceAnimalSpawn, doAnimalListDoviello. Visual counter for the Capital's spawn odds added to the main screen, counter for each city visible in it's city screen.
• Doviello spawn list changed massively.
  • New animals: Will list them as Animal - Techpath that unlocks it - Number of stages
    • Wolves - Recon - 5
    • Bears - Melee - 5
    • Boar - Siege - 4
    • Gorilla - Archer - 4
    • Griffin - Mounted - 5
    • Elk - Divine - 2
• Pack spells removed
• World Spell redone
  • Each unit you own gives a chance (Spawn chance of the Den (capital) + 25%) for an animal to spawn in the Den
  • List of animals is compiled using doAnimalListDoviello
• 'Mark of' promotions removed; Switched over to using the 'Blood' promotions instead. These will be granted by the Animal Dens to units built in the city, as with the old Mark promotions.
• Doviello Animals are allowed to upgrade using the same method as Wild Animals
• New state names for the Council of the Wilds civic, thanks to KillerClowns:
  • Good - Brotherhood of the [CIVNAME] Wildmen
  • Neutral - [LEADERNAME]'s Blood Brothers
  • Evil - [LEADERNAME]'s Pack
  • FoL - [LEADERNAME]'s Huntsmen
• Mezmerize Animal may be cast by all Doviello recon level 5 and higher

As for the 'Blood' promotions mentioned, that is how we are nerfing animal use for combat, yet keeping them attractive for more than settling in cities.

• All animals had some of their stats moved into a Blood, Heart, or Soul promotion (one of each per type of animal).
• When animals are captured, they gain the 'Tame' promotion; Makes them defensive only.
• Captured animals gain the escape spell.
• Captured animals may be sacrificed to grant units in their stack their Blood promotion; This promotion allows the next versions later on.
• With the Animal Handling technology, animals are able to cast the 'Warbeast' spell (50 ) which removes the tame promotion.
• Doviello animals are immune to the Tame promotion, with the exceptions of Spiders and Scorpions
• Archos Spiders/Scorpions are immune to the promotion, other animals are not.
• Assassins and Shadows gain the Urban promotion, blocks access to specific animal promotions (Those which explicitly increase combat stats, basically)

If anyone wants to discuss these changes, please open a new thread to do so. Title it something like "Doviello and Animal changes".

I never got really into the Doviello, so how does the (old)/new Blood, Heart and Soul promotions work? What benefits will they give to what units?

 

[Valkrionn]

Basically, some of each animals stats have been moved into those three promotions. No net change for the animal (which starts with them) but it allows recon units to gain some of that.

To use the Bear as an example:

• Bear Blood
  • +10% Attack/Defense in Tundra/Snow
  • +20% Ice Damage Resistance
  • -20% Fire Damage Resistance
• Bear Heart
  • Requires Combat2, Bear Blood
  • No penalties for attacking across rivers or from a boat
  • Heal while moving
  • +10% Heal Rate in all territories
• Bear Soul
  • Requires Combat4, Bear Blood
  • +15% Attack/Defense in Tundra/Snow
  • +1 Strength/Defense
  • +30% Ice Damage Resistance
  • -30% Fire Damage Resistance

Not going to compile an entire list of all animals here, would take too long.

There's no real limit on how many you can get on a unit, but the first level is always fairly weak, and taking the others requires a level up; It gets expensive.

Also, as this one provides strength it's one of the ones Assassins can not take.

 

[Haerzog]

Seems to me like it water's down the animals extensively, to the point of being almost ornamental. I dont see that capturing an animal should automatically make it a 'pet', nor that it should require the typically strictly regimented degree of training to be considered a 'Beast of War' and thus making it eligible to be aggressively deployed, such as war elephants for the Carthaginians, I feel though that those creatures which are captured should be bound to the recon/beast/etc. unit which captures them, such as the DnD style Beastmaster. Perhaps the 'children' spawned by these intial captures could acquire the 'tame' promotion, being as how they would conceivably have been raised in an un-barbarian environment.

However my perception may have been colored by the view I have which ascribes a greater degree of intelligence to the creatures in the game, following the obvious intellect of some of the 'Beasts' category, such as named ones spawned by events.

 

[Valkrionn]

Seems to me like it water's down the animals extensively, to the point of being almost ornamental. I dont see that capturing an animal should automatically make it a 'pet', nor that it should require the typically strictly regimented degree of training to be considered a 'Beast of War' and thus making it eligible to be aggressively deployed, such as war elephants for the Carthaginians, I feel though that those creatures which are captured should be bound to the recon/beast/etc. unit which captures them, such as the DnD style Beastmaster. Perhaps the 'children' spawned by these intial captures could acquire the 'tame' promotion, being as how they would conceivably have been raised in an un-barbarian environment.

However my perception may have been colored by the view I have which ascribes a greater degree of intelligence to the creatures in the game, following the obvious intellect of some of the 'Beasts' category, such as named ones spawned by events.

The issue is just that some of the animals are very strong; If it's feasible to run an army entirely off of Animals, something is wrong.

Most animals you capture under the new system would go to buff the recon units who captured them; Doviello and Archos continue to use their animals as before.

I have tossed around the idea of making recon units capture animals in a similar way to dominated units... Namely, each recon unit can control one animal at a time. This animal can be used to enhance cities, to grant it's capturer the Blood promo, or to attack. If a second animal is captured, it automatically grants it's Blood promo and then dies; Cannot have more than one unit.

Not sure if I'll implement that or not, we'll see.

 

[drayath]

All sounds good to me, assume appropriately balanced. The one bit of it i don't like is:

Captured animals may be sacrificed to grant units in their stack their Blood promotion

From a gameplay point of view this leads to extra micro-management as you try to get all units back to a single point to make best use of the sacrifice. Or not using it at all until late game when you have a stack of doom to use it on.

Is it possible to modify it somehow to avoid this, my possible suggestion below for minimal changes:

--

On sacrifice create x 'vial of xxx blood' items at that location, these work the same as any other item (can be picked up & used) when used give the blood promo to the unit. x should probably be modified by game speed (less for epic as have less units).

Give the future option of things like 'sacrificial alter' building that give +50% more vials from a sacrifice in this city etc.

Potentially makes blood promotions easier to balance as there is a know number of units they will affect from each capture.

 

[Haerzog]

I dont really see FoL civs, except evil ones maybe, or the Ljos sacrificing animals for that purpose. It just doesn't fit their national character. Same for the Elohim and the Mazatl. Sacrificing really is an evil or at best neutral sort of thing.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

The blood potions would have to be one time use, because otherwise you could take the corresponding heart and soul promotions and just pass the blood item on to another unit. Also items are dropped when units die, that would mean being able to steal an enemies blood promos without having captured the units that produced them. Could also be unbalanced.

 

[drayath]

Yes, the idea was assuming that they would be one use items like the various existing healing potions you can find/buy.

 

[hbar]

There's no real limit on how many you can get on a unit, but the first level is always fairly weak, and taking the others requires a level up; It gets expensive.

So to make sure I understand, the first (blood) is gained on killing an animal, but the heart and soul promotions are gained by spending a level, correct? Otherwise you could just get a hunter up to combat IV (not difficult) and then go den farming to get multiple soul promotions.

Can you have more than one blood promo on a single unit? What about heart and soul promos?

 

[Valkrionn]

So to make sure I understand, the first (blood) is gained on killing an animal, but the heart and soul promotions are gained by spending a level, correct? Otherwise you could just get a hunter up to combat IV (not difficult) and then go den farming to get multiple soul promotions.

Can you have more than one blood promo on a single unit? What about heart and soul promos?

No, the blood promotion is gained by capturing an animal and then sacrificing it. Currently it is added to all recon units in the stack, but it will be more limited in the future. Otherwise, you are correct: The Heart and Soul promotions require a levelup to take.

There is no limit to how many animal promotions a unit may have, but the mechanic is only available to recon and Assassins/Shadows are barred from specific promotions.

 

[Haerzog]

Again, the sacrificing mechanic seems wrong for some of the civilizations, certainly the Elohim. Wouldn't a sort of bonding ritual make more sense? The same promotion would be produced but the semantics of the operation seem important considering the fact that you are Sacrificing things, and sacrificing has up to now always been attributed to evil and ashen veil leaders.

 

[sylvain5477]

Again, the sacrificing mechanic seems wrong for some of the civilizations, certainly the Elohim. Wouldn't a sort of bonding ritual make more sense? The same promotion would be produced but the semantics of the operation seem important considering the fact that you are Sacrificing things, and sacrificing has up to now always been attributed to evil and ashen veil leaders.

I'm not actually sure sacrifice is necessary evil.
Many past cultures had animal sacrifices in a honorable way, respecting the animal soul (even thought it still died of course).

 

[Valkrionn]

Again, the sacrificing mechanic seems wrong for some of the civilizations, certainly the Elohim. Wouldn't a sort of bonding ritual make more sense? The same promotion would be produced but the semantics of the operation seem important considering the fact that you are Sacrificing things, and sacrificing has up to now always been attributed to evil and ashen veil leaders.

Honestly, that's just the effect. The method can vary (lorewise, at least).

One civ could sacrifice the animal in an unholy ritual. Another could be more like Sylvain said. Another could form a bond with the animal, the animal essentially becoming a part of the unit and so no longer shown independently.

The important part is just the effect: Animal goes away as an independent entity, Recon unit gets stronger. I'm planning to have each Animal unit effect just one Recon unit (Easy enough, just have to move the spell from Animal to Recon with Animal in stack, and have a slightly more complex bit of python to kill the animal).

 

[Grey Fox]

You'll never be able to sacrifice the Grey Fox. Cause you'll never catch him.

Yoink!

 

[Valkrionn]

You'll never be able to sacrifice the Grey Fox. Cause you'll never catch him.

Yoink!

Only because you haven't made the unit art yet.

 

[Evalis]

Except the greyfox unit has 80 attack/defense and crashes your game when you kill it.

 

[lordrune]

Except the greyfox unit has 80 attack/defense and crashes your game when you kill it.

That probably wouldn't be all that much more frustrating than Sabertooths appearing when you are the game's tech leader with Writing, Knowledge of the Ether, and researching Hunting.

When's that public 1.3 patch coming out again Valkrionn? Or do I continue to start my games with Wild Animals disabled?

 

[Valkrionn]

Hopefully soon; Finals week is nearly over, so I should have some time again soon.

 

[mickyd47]

Why don't you just do it the same way Orbis does. Just have a join the troops button that grants the promo to whatever unit you pick.