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Dr kossin #18

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
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    Canada
    Welcome to Dr kossin #18.

    Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

    Previously, I had been using maps that had been verified for isolation or semi-isolation. I have terminated that practice as, while a common sort of map, it doesn't entirely reflect the reality of gameplay and was a big hint that there were at least 2 civilizations nearby even if you started on an island by yourself.

    Since I have become more-or-less comfortable on Immortal, the goal of the series is now for me to move even beyond Immortality, into Deity grounds. Hopefully, readers will also be able to pick up a few things here and there to alleviate their own playing.

    You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case :)

    You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

    Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

    Enough talk, on to the game.

    Dr kossin #18​


    Round 1a Why isn't there a save feature?
    Round 1b Claiming land, the old-fashioned way
    Round 2 Diplomacy the military way

    Game settings
    Immortal
    Normal Speed
    Fractal
    No Events
    No Huts
    BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.2 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.0
    Everything else is normal.

    The leader, this time, is:


    Please refer to the China Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

    The start:


    Now that looks like a weak start. Food is so-so in place with pigs and clams. Land is brownish in general. The problem is settling in place leaves only 1 hill for production. I'm guessing a strategic resource will pop in either of the forest-less tiles so that would at least help a bit with production.

    Settling in place has the advantage of a 2 :hammers: city tile to accelerate the first worker and everything else subsequently.

    Settling 1S would give 2 plain hills in the BFC which is a bit better and the possibility of more seafood in the fog.

    Settling to get both pigs and the corn in the BFC is another option. It means we lose fresh water bonus and get a lot more brown tiles though.

    Having this much trees suggests some wonders could be pursued even without the strategic resource, thanks to Industrious. The Oracle->Metal Casting for one is an interesting one to get early forges going to maybe luck out on an Engineer even. Having workshops early on would also be helpful for production but they're kinda marginal before Guilds+Caste or Guilds+Chemistry (3 hammers at the cost of 2 food isn't a sound investment in my book).
     
  2. Ambro

    Ambro Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
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    81
    Move the Warrior SE, can't see anything to justify moving without moving something first.

    Was writing away and then noticed you'd said much of what I was going to at the end of your post. One thing I'd say though is that unhealthiness isn't the major issue you are going to face with this capital and if you settle coast then harbours should offset that plenty (happy cap is likely to be a bigger issue I'd say for most of the game unless you find some gems in the jungle I suspect isn't far South). I also think you have a couple of hidden resources very close, the grasslands NW and the Plains SE are prime hidden resource spots (I think, still getting a handle on this).

    Personally I think SW of the corn looks like a nice spot and may help to block off some land (too early to really tell but settling is often a bit of a gamble). Anywhoo, I'd move the warrior and see what is about.
     
  3. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I wouldn't be surprised to see both horses and iron on those 2 clearings. You'll definitely get one, since I think you're always guaranteed 3 specials, of which seafood counts for 1/2 (or 2/3?). So, you're sitting at 2.5.

    Personally I'd regenerate, but otherwise I'd say either settle in place and just cottage up all the green to the north of you, or settle 1S and hope for more food.
     
  4. hexem3117

    hexem3117 Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Virginia
    I'd move the warrior 1SE or 1NW. I don't see there being much opportunity for more food considering all the forests. As you're a bit far from the southern shore and would lose turns getting there provided there IS food, I'd SIP. North doesn't seem like there would be anything for you either. You'll definitely get a strategic resource if you SIP. Settling 1SE would lose you the clam. Although this state isn't the absolute best, I'd still say it's an OK start. Plains hill will help early production, and you'll have to cottage, which can help early/mid game research. I'd move your capital later provided you can find some riverside grassland/flood plains. This will probably be a slow growing city, unfortunately. Slow and Steady!
     
  5. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    It is very hammer poor cap. Probably one or two of unforest3ed tiles will be minable, but if that is iron it usually comes a bit late...

    Place 2NE looks rather better for my taste except of loosing potential special tiles [for units you can pick horses/metal in third ring, but won't get nice tile].

    In place were warrior is is not bad but looses extra turn, while picking one of suspicious tiles.

    Don't get why you are obsessed with fresh water bonus....
     
  6. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

    Joined:
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    1,276
    Move warrior SE. SW of corn looks good (coastal or lakeside, 2 plains hills). Where warrior is also looks good for a very good :hammers: capital. Settle a commerce city later, and maybe move capital.
     
  7. Ambro

    Ambro Chieftain

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    Ooh, like the 2NE idea. Farm it and mine it for production and then find a better capital site (hopefully on of the AI's).

    I personally don't worry about healthiness much unless I see a mass of floodplains. Could probably save a few hammers here and there if I paid fresh water a bit more attention I guess.
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
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    25,921
    1888 UN

    Spoiler :


    Settled in place. Warrior ---> worker while researching BW, then AH, then fishing. After that grabbed wheel, settled copper.

    The reason for doing this is 1) HC and wang gave me a religious sandwich and 2) HC gets stupid ghetto amounts of land without lifting a finger. Unwilling to allow an ass hat AI to go get 15-20 cities without even contending remotely for them, I chop, chop, chopped axes and hit him.



    Whabam, dead.

    Then I wheezed a garbage tech rate while settler/worker spamming and keeping wang @ pleased (no DoW). Rather than idiotca getting too much land untouched, I did.

    Some basic diplo management later, I won UN.







    The massive EP was for rapid tech catchup, which was un-necessary but good for score and gave me something to do while waiting for the AI to accrue the diplo w/ me and such.

    With so much land available to me with a basic axe rush it was hard to bother focusing after smacking the incans.

     
  9. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Location:
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    Round 1a

    Ok, I'm irritated. I lost the report twice and it is quite long. I'll make it shorter this time.

    Settled 1S thinking about GLH (land looks like a peninsula), Fishing first and start a worker while working spice tile - switch to WB and forested plains hill then resume worker.

    Turn 5 I find someone.
    Spoiler :


    AH and BW follow. Horses are close by but I decide against a rush eventually.

    A few reasons:
    Spoiler :

    Don't feel like falling too far behind this guy... 3 gold and flood plains? Gimme a break!


    Oh yea, HC has Copper in Cuzco's BFC also so... no go.


    I spent my hammers elsewhere of course...
    Spoiler :


    Now now... is the RNG screwing with me?
    Spoiler :
    Like he needs any help...


    Even by running 2 scientists in Beijing, I get a Great Merchant for my first great person.
    Spoiler :
    He bulbs Metal Casting for cheap forges and a run at The Colossus (now having copper hooked up)


    Of course, HC Oracled MC so I get gold instead...
    Spoiler :


    I found marble to the west so Literature was the next target. After that, neither WK or HC had Alphabet! So I researched it myself and started trading.
    Spoiler :



    I just missed on the Parthenon... I'm guessing Ramesses is out there as someone is hording wonders other than HC.



    I got another wonder which should help a bit...
    Spoiler :


    Trade for gold with Wang... he had a lot of gold to spare (pun intended).
    Spoiler :


    I beelined Music next and was rewarded with one Great Artist who went to sleep.
    Spoiler :


    Ways into gold...
    Spoiler :




    Another trade. I gave him some gold but him and WK being Worst Enemies made waiting 1 more turn a guaranteed diplo hit with WK.
    Spoiler :


    Well, this guy is certainly late.
    Spoiler :
    Couldn't think of a better immediate use for him so long term it is.


    Another trade.
    Spoiler :


    As I finished Civil Service, I fired up a Golden Age with the Music Artist.
    Spoiler :


    Free civic revolt was quite useful.
    Spoiler :


    I ran a bunch of Scientists in Beijing which got me 2 Great Scientists in exchange for 1 pop. Also, by this time I was putting up new cities to the west (north of barb city) so they got easy border pops.
    Spoiler :


    I'm farming over Beijing so it can finally grow. The second scientist bulbed towards Education.
    Spoiler :


    And then looked like a good time to stop. I have 1 more city coming up and a few paths available ahead.

    Land
    Spoiler :





    Techs
    Spoiler :




    Diplomacy
    Spoiler :


    Now that HC and WK started lagging behind, Cuirassiers/Cavalry look interesting. I don't have a great tech rate right now so maybe it won't happen... we'll see. At least I have a lot of good land now so any Victory Condition shouldn't be too hard to pursue.

    I don't think I can delay Liberalism for Military Tradition... I have the worst GNP on the map. Nationalism should be a fair freebie.
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Oooh, you played it differently than me again. I massively axe rushed HC (I saw his land available early as I managed to get around w/ a warrior before border pops), which worked without issue for a change and he was gone 350 BC. The copper site blocked wang enough after 1 more city, too, giving me stupid amounts of land and a neighbor that wouldn't declare...

    Part of my reasoning for this was the buddhist/hindu sandwich I got tho.
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    I got caught in a religious sandwich as well (went to Judaism but switched out when HC got Hindu).
    The nice part is HC built the AP and I'm getting some pretty good production off it, combined with those cheap forges. Needless to say I whipped quite a bit.

    Now that I just looked at the map, there seems to be an island or more land at the southern tip of HC's land. I'll try to get a boat down there and maybe I can luck out on trade routes.

    Looking forward to see how your early game went. It's probably a stronger approach but you never know. Both of their land looks yummy in any case.
     
  12. Kadazzle

    Kadazzle Emperor

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    Toronto, Canada
    Move the Settler where the warrior is... 'nuff food and hills.
     
  13. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Somewhat late for that ;)

    I played on a bit as this was an interesting situation to me.

    Round 1b

    Wang finally wanted to part with Calendar (I only needed it for 2 spices).
    Spoiler :


    I cashed out on Sistine Chapel without really going at it, 572 gold is quite nice.
    Spoiler :


    Then the other continent met us... ugh.
    Spoiler :
    He was advanced quite a bit.



    A couple trades for good measure.
    Spoiler :




    I haven't lost this race in a long long time! Oh well, I was really late anyway.
    Spoiler :


    Several trades from the Liberalism line...
    Spoiler :







    A few more AIs show up.
    Spoiler :





    Research started picking up as soon as I finished Astronomy and those intercontinental trade routes came about. That was a welcome sight as both Wang and HC went into Mercantilism early in the round, yikes!

    The of course it was whipping time, with most cities set up as food centers...
    I declared war without moving my troops. Wang of course came at me and emptied his nearest city making it easy for grabs. (combined with a spy revolt)
    Spoiler :




    The rest was quite easy... it helped that Hammurabi and Charlemagne started bombarding his city defenses.
    Spoiler :








    Once he was left with 1 offshore island city, I picked up the phone... (I could get Corporation but that'd obsolete GLH!)



    Then I noticed HC is slacking on defenses and rifles so I've just moved everything there and I'm planning an assault within a couple of turns...
    Spoiler :




    Tech situation
    Spoiler :




    Diplo
    Spoiler :


    Once HC is out of the picture, this should be clear sailing to whatever victory I choose...
     
  14. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Location:
    Planet Earth
    Start to Finish

    Giving me industrious is sort of like cheating. Naturally, I got a little too over-self confident, and started to play sloppy right from the start (too sloppy). If you looked at my game you’d think I was a Monarch player at best. Eventually, I found myself in a really bad situation, and finally hit rock-bottom bogged down in a two-thousand year war, pinned between two opponents, and no economy. At that point I decided I had better start focusing and climb my way out or else…

    Spoiler :

    I wasn’t too thrilled at this start, but at least it wasn’t another 0-food start again. Unfortunately, the AI’s in this game later turned out to have REDICULOUSLY good starts. That really annoys me but what can you do?

    Anyhow, I went around grabbing wonders whenever I could. Unfortunately having so bad a commerce and production area as this really hurt. I couldn’t do the gambits I wanted, unlike my opponents who had everything!

    I did research bronze working but unfortunately I had no copper around anywhere. I found one copper spot down far south, but just as I had the area fortified and fog busted, I got tones of never ending barbs continually start sneaking their way over and over again. And my whole fog-bust network just collapses like a deck of cards.

    Furthermore, stupid HC decides to DoW on me. I made a serious blunder in thinking Wang was on the OTHER side of him. This is because when I met Wang, he moved his scout out of sight so I thought it was in HC’s territory. Well, sadly I found out the news later on many turns after when I saw him send a scout, but this time it was definitely from the West!

    At this point I knew damn well there was a high chance HC was going to hit me, so I used the stone at least to get cheap walls up and put my protective traits to work. Sure enough, the damn idiot DoWs on me and attacks. He smashed right into my fully fortified city(s) on the front line. Unfortunately I did another stupid blunder and forgot to promote my archers, so I lost ONE unit. However, I kept losing so many close battles after that, it seems more likely if I had saved that original unit by promoting it, I could have saved 30 or 50 other units down the road.

    Oh well, another lesson learned the hard way. At least I got one GG after another, without TGW or IMP traits. This stupicd HC, he just wouldn’t give up. He kept wanting a city, he wouldn’t even take any of the big techs I had, so we kept fighting.

    And fighting.. And fighting.. And fighting…

    He DoWed in the BC years, and we didn’t even make peace until after 1500 A.D. sometime! And even then I had to pay him over 600 gold, including two big techs and other goodies. Had to use a lot of tricks there, since I never even had built a cottage this whole game!

    Sadly, I had missed out on the Pyramids so my SE eccon wasn’t running nearly as good as it could have.

    Anyhow… there were other very serious blunders I had made early on. Stupid HC had forced me to cancel deals with Wang. I had THOUGHT that was the key he was about to attack Wang, but we all know what he really did after! I gave into his demands, and the stupid patch failed to give me my peace-deals (why is it always so buggy!?)

    And of course, when HC then attacked me, that meant I lost ALL trade routes, which TRULY SUCKED because I had built the Light House, and now THAT was for nothing too. Ughhhh. Furthermore, I got negative ratings with Wang, and those would stick until the very end of the game.

    WHY IS IT THE NEGATIVE DIPLO RATINGS NEVER F*CKING DECAY, BUT ALL THE GOOD ONES ALWAYS DO!!??

    Anyhow, add another 100 & 1 Monarch-rookie plays by me, and you see what kind of trouble I ended up in.. Of course, I lost the liberalism race too, etc.

    Needless to say, I began to start taking this game very seriously not too long after that first war started! So it did indeed become a workout despite being only Immortal.

    Ohh, I did pull a fast one over on HC. I had to pay him in excess over 60 gold a turn (which I obviously couldn’t afford). So right away I did my civic switches to bankrupt myself and make sure he didn’t get a penny for at least 1 turn, if I could help it. Hahaha! I love that old trick.

    Of course, that idiot Charle on the other continent. He is running a different religion from Zara, and has mass culture pressure from Zara. So what does he do? He attacks…

    He doesn’t attack the most obvious target mind you, he instead goes all the way out of his way, to attack the human player on the other end of the world, on another continent. LOL, can the anti-human bias be anything but too obvious even on Immortal?

    Since I knew damn well what was up when he went weehorn, I immediately make defense pacts with Wang and HC. Thus I at least mess up the diplomacy with the AI’s a bit more. Sure enough, Charle DoW’s on me. Can not believe this AI is so stupid as to have no comprehension as to what I had just done there.

    However, I had too many cuirassiers for him to land, so he kept moving down my coasts. Unfortunately I couldn’t keep up, and he landed near my Hero-Epic city, which unfortunately didn’t have that many cuirassiers standing by (ohh the Irony!!)

    Things got so bad for me with him landing all those trebs and cavalry, that I actually did something I have never done before (though I read about it before).

    That’s right… I got SOOOOOOOO desperate, I actually had to promote my local under-staffed cuirassiers to FLANK II, and I think it MAY have been optimal. Ohhh, the shame.

    Well, it worked, I was able to seriously hurt all the seige, while not loosing too many cuirassiers. The trick was to have enough alive to hold the city for my main SoDs to arrive.

    So, that was a big break, saving my HE city (yeah the irony).

    I eventually made peace with stupid Charle, and his vassal. Then I DoW on HC to get my own PAYBACK. :):):):):)! I forget the number of cav I had, but I’ll post a screenshot. I even had so many spy points I was able to drop a few walls. This was quite handy, since that bastard kept stealing all my techs, and eventually he got rifling… SOB!

    I would have slammed into his city-rifles anyway, but this way I roll over him quicker :p

    Unfortunately, during this war stupid HC forced a holy war so I had to Re-Dow on Charle and his vassal due to the AP. God I hate that thing…

    Well, needless to say one of the first things I did was go after that frieken AP wonder in the capital. And I snatched a bunch of other cities. Ironically, Charle lands and takes a coastal city from HC, but then he abandons it so he can send everything, including the kitchen sink MY WAY, just to hit me?

    Again, is the anti-human bias in this game not just A LITTLE TOO OBVIOUS?!

    So I had to deal with another cavalry SoD AGAIN, but at least I took his city without losing a unit (I think).

    I made peace with Charle again, but for some reason I could not get that frieken HC to capitulate. The idiot swears he is doing fine on his own. DESPITE THE FACT I AM CLEARLY KICKING HIS CAPITAL FROM ONE SPOT TO ANOTHER ACROSS THE CONTINENT!

    Then as if that wasn’t enough, I get the notice he vassaled to Mr. Burger King.

    Huh? Charle didn’t even DO ANYTHING!? How the F*CK is he doing fine on his own, yet he capitulates to someone else who isn’t even on our god damn continent? And for no reason?

    I ask again, IS THE ANTI-HUMAN BIAS IN THIS GAME NOT TOO OBVIOUS!?

    This type of stuff doesn’t even make any sense. But I see it all the time.

    Anyhow, at this point I start to get an interesting idea. Since I captured the AP, I figured why not use it. Now… I am always against chease AP and chease culture wins, however I don’t blame people for back-dooring into them much later in the game. This tends to be quite common with the AP in some of the deity games around here. So, I decided to give it a shot. Though I was a bit weary, since the last 2 times I tried to backdoor an AP, I ran into the old dormant-bug again which messed things up.

    I had quite a few problems trying to spread my religion to everyone else, but eventually I used all the tricks in the book, and we got it to work. So then I was all set…

    Except for one problem, stupid Wang gave me another bug problem. I couldn’t get him to switch into his FAVOURITE civic because of some ******** excuse. Yet I could switch him into any other civic if I wanted. Ughhhh..

    My spies kept failing, which made my situation worse.

    And then, I found out I couldn’t even get him to make a defense pact with me anymore.

    Christ, and then I get the Germans going Weehorn on me… And Mr. BurgerKing with his vassal going weehorn too.

    Well, I started to get machine guns out etc.. .and wait for the inevitable. Eventually stupid Frederick attacks, and I lost a city. Of course he has x-ray vision and knows exactly which city out of 100 I have which is the least protected. SoB!

    Then Charlie and his vassals attack the exact next turn right when I had moved out units to run to the other front on the other side of my territory. God damnit, could this timing be any worse?

    And again, why always me? What’s with all this god damn anti-human bias sh!t? I’m not even on their friken continent already.

    Eventually I was able to bribe Wang into the war against Charle. So in the end, Charle saved my ass, by trying to kill my ass. As ironic as that may seem, he gave me I think up to +4 for sharing war, and I was then set at friendly with Wang.

    Thank you stupid Charle!!!!

    I then bribed Zara into a war with Charle now that two of us were already fighting him. This was a bit risky though because with my luck, someone may capture someone elses Hindu city and that would totally screw over my AP plans. But I was frieken pissed with all this bias against me from the get-go.

    Well, eventually that voting time came by again, I was all ready to stand up and exit with yet another win under my belt…

    And then horror struck.

    Same damn turn the vote came for religious victory, Wang shifts out of caste (I had earlier used spies to get him into it), and this caused me to lose friendly status.

    :):):):)kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!! Obviously I’d have to spend an entire round all over again preparing to do this stupid voting alinement once again.

    Ohh, wait false alarm. Looks like Wang still voted for me anyway. I don’t get it, he wasn’t friendly anymore so what’s going on there?

    Anyhow, if he wants to vote for me, I’m happy to take them. And so there was my victory…









     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    @ obsolete:

    The AI will vote a civ to win if they have at least +8 net diplo (warning: includes hidden modifiers) and they don't like the alternate candidate (if any) more. In speed UN games this can literally just be:

    +4 trade
    +2 OB
    +2 resources
    +1 years of peace

    Which, without other demerits, will get you the vote from any leader that doesn't like the other candidate more even via overcoming a hidden -1. 2 of the AIs that voted for me in this game were @ pleased (though my backdoor was UN, the req's for diplo are the same)
     
  16. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Round 2

    I upgraded several Cuirassiers to Cavalry and then made mincemeat out of HC.
    Spoiler :













    I love 2-movement units based wars.


    From there, I traded myself back to tech parity mostly with help from Charlemagne who was also lagging a bit behind.

    Looking at the diplo situation, this was the easiest victory condition:
    Spoiler :


    Unfortunately, for some stupid hidden modifiers, Hammurabi snatched the UN control from me and I had to wait a long time before the next secretary vote to get control.

    In any case, it gave me time to bribe him to Free Religion and to get Favorite Civic bonuses with the other AIs.
    Spoiler :


    In the end it turned out I was against Charlemagne rather than Hammurabi, but it made no difference thanks to bringing Hammurabi to Free Religion so he lost the religious bonuses with Zara.
    Spoiler :


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Post game

    This was an interesting start. There were some fast techers and our immediately available land wasn't that great. Taking over our two neighbors who slacked on their defenses put this one in the bag.

    Score? I don't even know why I put the score anymore, it really is pointless. Anyway, it would have been better without hidden modifiers.
    Spoiler :


    Dr kossin #19 is coming tomorrow, keep reading!
     
  17. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

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    Well played. From these series I get a good idea of what I need to do to improve my own games even though I am nowhere near your level yet. How you keep smashing around the AI like that without hickups is beyond me, but very well done. :goodjob:
     
  18. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Agreed. I think if you want to post some sort of final splash-screen, the Top-5-Cities screen at least has so some interesting value at least.
     
  19. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    You'll get used to smacking them around... you just need to build up some confidence and get a feel for reinforcements.
    I'm struggling a bit at this on Deity and that may be a reason why I can't win consistently there.

    Hmm, that makes sense. That or just the statistics screen is more relevant to the game.

    I read your report. It really is a shame the Industrious trait couldn't be used that much with the starting position and the AIs great starts. Also lucked out on HC/Charle attacking you... were you running a religion in the beginning?
    WK didn't want to switch to Caste and have to deal with the Emancipation unhappiness of course. It is kinda strange though that he'd shy away from his favorite civic. I briefly considered an AP win as well but the Theology lovers kinda turned me away from that path.

    Nice game! How many axes did you lose taking HC out - 6 or less? How did Wang sneak those settlers to the top of the peninsula, boats? Those were some good city spots.
     
  20. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Hell no, I was trying to avoid a war with HC there... unfortunately it didn't do a damn thing. I accepted a lot of demands too, and that's why I was FORCED into HC's religion a bit early. Unfortunately, with the bugs in the latest patch, you only get your peace-terms on a random basis.

    Anyhow, hurry up and start the next one. It's Friday.
     

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