few things
Why did you research code of laws w/o the priesthood? It's a very small tech to trade too.
You can buy Mr. Mansa's map to see who's around. You can resell it later too.
I'd not improve most of the tiles on the border. They are bound to be lost.
Forgot:
>>Philosophy was only known to Mansa but he's not the one who founded Taoism in 750BC, so the trades were finally available.
How do you know who founded it? W/o view at the city, it's impossible to tell unless the guy converts into. Also since it's known to Mansa, most likely he didn't got it from the one that trade it (unless it's friendly, but that's not very likely). It's unlikely that he has tech'd it manually (the value drops significantly) either. So the odds are he founded it himself, imo.
few things
Why did you research code of laws w/o the priesthood? It's a very small tech to trade too.
You can buy Mr. Mansa's map to see who's around. You can resell it later too.
I'd not improve most of the tiles on the border. They are bound to be lost.
Forgot:
>>Philosophy was only known to Mansa but he's not the one who founded Taoism in 750BC, so the trades were finally available.
How do you know who founded it? W/o view at the city, it's impossible to tell unless the guy converts into. Also since it's known to Mansa, most likely he didn't got it from the one that trade it (unless it's friendly, but that's not very likely). It's unlikely that he has tech. it manually (the value drops significantly) either. So the odds are he founded it himself, imo.
Mansa's map is a bit expensive (110 gold) right now and there's nothing telling me he hasn't traded it already.
Border tiles: I'll focus on first ring tiles on the border for now. It's also one of the reasons why I prefer farms in those tiles to cottages.
I'm going to be whipping infra in the round (Forges/Theatres/Hindu buildings) which should help to keep those at the very least - until war that is.
Toaism: I assumed you'd see who founded it in F7 even without vision (at least the civ if not the city) but I see that isn't the case now as he founded Confucianism but I do ot have the info.
Brennus is a bit like Isabella, Saladin etc., sort of a religious fanatic, so he'll keep pounding on Justinian for a long time.
That other continent running away in tech is only a big problem IF they also have a lot of land. Provided they're small and you take out Hammy and Gandhi the rest of the game shouldn't be a problem as you'll have a production advantage post Steam Power and likely highly promoted Cavalry-> Gunships/Cannons-Artillery, Rifles-> Infantry.
Brennus is a bit like Isabella, Saladin etc., sort of a religious fanatic, so he'll keep pounding on Justinian for a long time.
That other continent running away in tech is only a big problem IF they also have a lot of land. Provided they're small and you take out Hammy and Gandhi the rest of the game shouldn't be a problem as you'll have a production advantage post Steam Power and likely highly promoted Cavalry-> Gunships/Cannons-Artillery, Rifles-> Infantry.
The only thing I'm worried about Brennus is his city advantage. Justinian has only 5 while Brennus has 7 (+4 from Gandhi but whatever). I'll just keep an eye out.
A look at demographics shows me I'm currently second in land, next to Hammurabi (Brennus shows as having the most but that's because of his vassal). Mansa is at 7 cities and I'm guessing he's probably exhausted the available land at his disposition, meaning no more cities before Astro... conclusion: I have the second most land and will have as many cities as Hammy once I settle my last two.
Hopefully things don't go too out of whack and Shaka can flex his muscles a bit.
Played this game just this morning where Ghandi declared on the Khmer while Mansa declared on Alex and Mansa vassalised Alex. Later on Ghandi warred with Mansa and he vassalised Mansa...
By the way, should you blast the bejeezus out of the AI, would you mind then explaining in detail how you approach the AI and what you do to amass your army? If have been able to replicate the techniques you demonstrated somewhat and with some succes so thank you for that, but the overpowering strength that you demonstrate in war is not met by me, nor do I understand how you pull it off.
Do not go out of your way too much though, I can always ask specific questions should I feel the need so that the game may go on faster for those not interested in minor details.
Another short round. I have work tonight and well, you'll see.
To start the round, I took a chance and opened borders with Mansa. Worst come to worst, he'd get more commerce. OTOH, if he was culturally close to Gandhi, I'd get instant trade routes... which was the case as you'll see later.
By the time I found Brennus's stack, he had just gotten his hands on one of Justinian's cities. I wasn't too impressed by it so I let the war go on.
Spoiler:
Cities were assigned to build Forges (whip) and then various Hindu buildings as well as some missionaries and Theatres. Once Paper was completed, I traded it around immediately. No point hoarding it: UoS built in 1AD and Mansa had it so it was risky to keep it, Liberalism was out of reach.
Spoiler:
I traded it a few more times for raw gold to allow more deficit research.
Getting Hammurabi's map confirmed the presence of the Incans on the map. He's pretty large in fact, coming in at 11 cities by the looks of it.
Spoiler:
By 325AD, Mansa has just gotten Education.
Spoiler:
Liberalism isn't looking so great =\ I'll only have 1 GS because I didn't revolt to Pacifism so I can't bulb Education and Liberalism.
I keep going. 4 turns later, I spawn another Great Scientist. I can either bulb Education, settle, make a second Academy or trigger a Golden Age.
At my research speed, I estimate Mansa requires about 5 turns or less to research Liberalism so I opt out of Bulbing Education. Settling is good in a Bureaucracy Capital, considering Oxford will go there. My second city would also benefit from an Academy.
However, I decide to trigger a Golden Age. It'll allow me to build infrastructure faster and try a gamble.
Spoiler:
My exploring workboat finally encounters Huayna Capac, who's widely hated and not willing to trade much with me.
Spoiler:
So what's the gamble I mentioned?
You might have noticed in the previous screenshot that I have a Great Scientist due in 2 turns and 3 turns from completing Education.
->I go all out research everywhere to bring Education down to 2 turns and starve Ulundi 2 pop points to generate that Scientist as fast as possible.(revolted to Caste+Pacifism for the Golden Age)
What are the costs?
1-GP golden age is used up a bit earlier than optimal.
2 population in Ulundi
1 turn of infrastructure production (1 turn set on building science only)
What are the benefits?
Spoiler:
Do you see it? Mansa Musa will trade Nationalism
The idiot actually skipped Liberalism for Nationalism...
I thought he might do it since S. Paya was granting him Free Religion lowering the value of Liberalism in his view.
Conclusion: Liberalism is mine!
Ulundi after starving 2 pops just generated its GS. [This was not the actual micro used, I just clicked the city tile to turn on the governor then reassigned the ones that were wrong]
Bulb the GS towards Liberalism
Which brings it down to 2 turns from completion... even Mansa can't do that here.
Education being in, I start trading it, but not to everyone.
Spoiler:
Hammy had some research in it already as I couldn't get full value.
I'd like to get Engineering as well from it but Justinian doesn't want to trade it yet. Not sure why, Notre Dame is already built and there are stronger troops than Pikes available. Plus there are 3 civs that know it already.
Here's what's left of Brennus's stack. Nothing too threatening so I'll let them keep killing each other.
Spoiler:
Techs - Astronomy is available from Liberalism. While not that useful right now it'll be a monopoly and allow me to trade with Mansa some more.
Spoiler:
Diplomacy - not too great with HC or Brennus but they're far away and don't matter right now.
Spoiler:
Everyone is at war but me. That slows down the tech pace a bit which is good for the human.
Spoiler:
Here are 2 of the important cities for upcoming wars:
Heroic Epic - online.
Spoiler:
Globe Theatre - yet to be built. Need a few more theatres across the empire first.
Spoiler:
As of now I'm starting to build Universities for Oxford in Ulundi. I will have stone hooked up in 4 turns so it'll be a fast build.
Two options for war: cuirassiers ASAP or wait a bit for Cavalry.
Cuirassiers will die a bit more due to Pikes and elephants and might require some spy support.
Cavalry however is more likely to encounter Rifles, which is even worst odds.
Obviously I'll start building Cuirassiers at some point and after that research will be aimed at Rifling.
If I can kill Hammurabi, the continent is mine. Brennus is backwards, Justinian is very small at 4 cities, and Gandhi is a pushover that will probably capitulate fast once Brennus starts falling.
By my analysis, Hammurabi is the only danger factor for this landmass. Since he's at war with HC, he's probably building quite a few units meaning I'd need quite a few Cuirassiers to get things going. 30 is probably a lower bound number for an army here... that can be achieved in roughly 10 turns upon acquiring the necessary techs (about 15 turns). So let's say 30 more turns to mass up an army of Cuirassiers. Rifling won't be close by then. A few spies might be helpful to take out hill cities. I've just focusd espionage on him but having built 0 courthouses isn't going to help that much
I might have to spend a few turns on espionage to have sufficient EP to revolt at least 2 cities.
By the time Hammurabi's dead however, Rifling should be close by to allow me to walk over the rest of the landmass.
Deity being Deity, I'm gonna stop making predictions of the turns to come as things can get nasty before you know it. Magic rifles have a name for a reason
Are you still in caste or slavery? If you're in slavery, HR + 2 pop whipping catapults will get you a faster Globe than slow building it off of one grass mine.
If you're going to build Oxford, you might want to consider warring with cavalry or cannons. If you're going for cuirassiers, I'd ditch Oxford and push harder for the faster return (i.e., building stables and wealth now to prepare for a whipping spree). Any idea what Hammy's SoD looks like now? They might be in boats so be careful (I've had an AI amphibiously assault me 2-3 turns after declaring war with "hidden" units).
Are you still in caste or slavery? If you're in slavery, HR + 2 pop whipping catapults will get you a faster Globe than slow building it off of one grass mine.
If you're going to build Oxford, you might want to consider warring with cavalry or cannons. If you're going for cuirassiers, I'd ditch Oxford and push harder for the faster return (i.e., building stables and wealth now to prepare for a whipping spree). Any idea what Hammy's SoD looks like now? They might be in boats so be careful (I've had an AI amphibiously assault me 2-3 turns after declaring war with "hidden" units).
Still in caste although I can switch back next turn.
wrt GT, it won't be that helpful for a mounted assault but it can always be useful for drafting later I guess.
I'm not sold on Oxford yet since as you pointed out it delays grabbing land and I still need to put stables up and grow pop as much as possible for whipping. It'd also be less of a waste of immediate hammers as I could put the slider on espionage for a while.
If I can trade for Nationalism next turn, then I think Cuirassiers right now would be better -> build wealth/science after stables are up and grow as much as possible for an excessive whipping session.
Good point about having his navy on boats, I'll have to check for that. For the moment, I assume he's not doing too well with boats as he has no cities on the southern coast (meaning every boat comes from the north) and I haven't seen any boats going around my culture, the long way. If might be he has a fleet to the northeast. In that case, it can possibly be dealt with early in the war if he parks it in a city.
I haven't scouted his cities yet for units, that'll be an important part of the next round(s).
Another short round, which basically consisted in building some infrastructure, growing cities a bit and researching through Military Tradition.
As proposed, Astronomy was the freebie from Liberalism.
Spoiler:
This allowed me to go on a trading spree in the net couple of turns.
Spoiler:
Meanwhile, I had a scout check out Hammurabi's cities.
Spoiler:
The northeast is very weak, I *should* be able to storm it fairly easily.
He's massing a mini fleet here.
Brennus was gaining more ground on Justinian, capturing Constantinople. He's got quite a few units actually.
Spoiler:
In other news, Mansa bent the knee and kissed the Incan ring after losing only 2 cities... that makes HC that much more powerful.
Spoiler:
Once Brennus had his stack ready to take out another Justinian city, I bribed peace.
Spoiler:
This accomplishes two main things:
-Justinian doesn't vassal to him, and can't vassal to Hammurabi since he's at war with HC. Hopefully I am ready for war before that one ends.
-Brennus has a large stack stuck in Constantinople, and the city is basically useless. It'll be easy to kill after Hammurabi. (Hammurabi->Brennus+Gadhi->Justinian->Mansa+HC)
He might redeclare war or even go after Hammurabi if I'm lucky!
By 800AD I am ready to start producing units and I stop the round.
Spoiler:
I have 8 cities, one that's fairly new and won't contribute and another size 6 that won't contribute too much. Meaning it's mostly a 6-city show - the next 10 turns are going to be very whip heavy.
Techs
Spoiler:
Rifling is quite a way ahead. Depending on Brennus's tech situation, I might have to pause and research it before declaring war on him.
Diplo
Spoiler:
Hammy's land
Spoiler:
I counted 38 units as garrison across his empire. I'm guessing it might be up to 45~50 by now. I couldn't see any kind of SoD. They could be already in the boats spotted, but given so few boats, it'd not be a convincing SoD.
He has 2 sources of Iron for Pikes, one under a city and the second can be pillaged on t3 of the war or after capturing Akkad on t2 of the war. Moreover he has a few elephants running around but I think he won't be able to field new ones now that he's at war with Mansa, HC's vassal.
Nice island south... I don't have the spare hammers for that right now unfortunately.
Spoiler:
Next round will feature heavy whipping in several cities, with the goal of massing around 30 cuirassiers in a as short as possible time.
If Brennus stays backwards and I can thump on Hammurabi, this game's looking pretty good.
There are several ways to whip: optimal whip (max hammers), cycle whips (10 turns) and hurry whip (don't care about overflow/pop, want build now).
I usually combine cycles with optimal whips, more or less cycles though as there's usually enough happy cap. Here however, hurry whip is the desired one. A few 3-pops, 2-pops for less than max hammers and a few 1-pops will be used extensively in the next round.
~~~
Speaking of which, I've played the round but I can't post it right now. It's a shorty, basically I'm just showing how to amass an army *fast*. Timing is probably the biggest issue on Deity so every turn counts. Especially here, you want to hit at tech superiority/parity but before the main city defender is upgraded to Rifles. Muskets and Longbows just don't fare well against Cuirassiers and Cavalry.
That is quite a big stack... Very curious how you will pull off amassing an army that fast, although you gave it away already. I am looking forward to see how it will turn out. thank you for showing it in detail, allow me to metaphorically kiss your feet.
I'll start the round by examining each of my 8 cities.
Ulundi
Spoiler:
This is my bureaucracy capital and has a nice hammers output as well as good commerce. It will not be whipped unless the happy cap is reached/war weariness.
uMgungundlovu (I like to pronounce it um-gun-guned-lov-u)
Spoiler:
This is a secondary commerce city. It was mostly commerce early on to pay the bills but I made it a hybrid for whipping. The mature cottages will be left to be worked but everything else is free to go.
Nobamba
Spoiler:
Has 2 cottages but otherwise everything can be whipped away.
Bulawayo
Spoiler:
Small as it didn't have that much food early on and sailing came late. I actually cancelled the Stable and let it grow a bit by building spies.
Heroic Epic
Spoiler:
Name speaks for itself, also not worth whipping too much.
Globe Theatre
Spoiler:
Now that's a whipping city. It barely lost any population even though it was whipped severely.
Assyrian
Spoiler:
The last captured barb city, came online late due to lacking IW until late. Farms everywhere and 2 food resources make this a very good whipping city.
kwaDukuza
Spoiler:
Too late to provide units, however starting next turn it will provide whales and silk. Not going to talk about this city for the rest of this round.
Hit Enter
820AD... so which city is ready for the whip?
Spoiler:
3 pops might seem costy but it's only an Engineer, a plain farms and a grassland farm.
2 pops - mine and watermill
3 pops - 2 scientists, 1 engineer
1 pop - coast
Hit Enter
840AD
Let's look at a few whipped cities...
Spoiler:
Cities tend to regrow pretty fast and you barely notice they've been whipped...
Barely a scratch
...
900AD
Brennus redeclares war and Hammy makes peace.
Spoiler:
How many troops in 5 turns?
Spoiler:
10
...
1000AD
After 5 more turns, how many more troops?
Spoiler:
13 more -> 23
...
1040AD
Stopped due to time. War preparation is almost complete, I'll probably declare war in 2~3 turns.
A look at Brennus's troops.
Spoiler:
A lot of obsolete units. Nothing too scary.
Total troops so far.
Spoiler:
How do some of the whipped cities look now?
Spoiler:
War plan
Main stack
Spoiler:
Red: first turn, creates a fork.
Blue: second turn, revolt Nippur with spies (hill) and take Borsippa with leftovers
Black: spies. Already one in position at 10% discount
Secondary stack
Spoiler:
Red: take city on first turn
Blue: mop up units standing by
Black: next city
Espionage
Spoiler:
Almost enough for 2 revolts at 50% discount.
Techs
Spoiler:
Mansa is running away but with the city count I'll have by the end of warring, it won't matter.
Diplomacy
Spoiler:
Only worry is relations with HC that aren't that great.
Hammurabi should be wiped off the map pretty fast. Cities will keep whipping. The goal is to bring the entire landmass under my control, research and growth can be resumed afterwards. My only real opponent is Huayna for this game, he's teching well and has a decent number of cities, plus MM as his vassal.
Nice, I guess whipping is even more powerful a tool than I initially thought. I tend to go to caste system when I switch to pacifism + bureau, and I tend not to stack whip anger. How wrong I have been all this time... It is indeed what I wanted to see, a very good writeup of perpararions. You the man!
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