1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Dr kossin #24

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Welcome to Dr kossin #24.

    Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

    Since the 21st edition of this series, the difficulty level has been cranked all the way up to Deity. I'm not at the point where I can win every game thrown at me on Deity level... I probably can't even win every game thrown at me on Immortal but it is getting a bit boring. My goal is now to achieve competitive skills on this level which should hopefully help me improve more.

    You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case :)

    You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

    Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

    Enough talk, on to the game.

    Dr kossin #24​


    Round 0 SIP and discuss
    Round 1 When barbs are attacked
    Round 2 Catching up
    Round 3 Towards a tech lead?!?
    Round 4 Getting ready to mobilize
    Round 5 Built out of thin air
    Round 6 Extermination
    Round 7 Nothing a few punches can't solve

    Game settings
    Deity
    Normal Speed
    Fractal
    No Events
    No Huts
    BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.2 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.0
    Everything else is normal.

    A special thanks to BigTime who provided the map.

    The leader, this time, is:


    Please refer to the Zulu Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation. (sorry for the reading difficulty... I'm trying to color it to the nation's color so it's bound to be unreadable at some point.)

    The start:


    I like playing Shaka. A lot! He's one of the strongest leaders despite no "economic techs". I rate Expansive pretty high for faster workers and "instant-granaries". Moreover, Shaka is kinda half-Organized with the Ikhanda that reduces maintenance while effectively costing only 30:hammers:.

    The start looks fine. Oasis for extra commerce early on and a forested plains hill to accelerate the first worker. Food is okay with riverside rice and 2 flood plains with more green land than brown. I really don't like Incense in the BFC however, it's a bad tile in general. There might be a cow or wheat in the fog for more food but let's not ask for too much. (copper?!?!)

    The river looks nice and I think settling in place is a pretty safe bet here.

    Techwise, if there's no cows in my immediate BFC, I think there's enough commerce to go for Mining>BW right away. The second city might be on the river making The Wheel less of a priority. I won't get too far ahead as it's just speculation at this point and exploration is required to really have a better idea of how to proceed.

    First round starts tomorrow, feel free to chime in until then!
     
  2. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    5,594
    The Shaka wiki link isn't hard for me to read at all since I use the blue skin. :D Anyway, nice to see another one of these games up. I should try and update as fast as you.

    I also echo your appreciation with the ikhanda. It's an outstanding early UB that is doubled by Shaka's trait, dirt cheap, has incredible synergy with Shaka's strengths, comes immediately at the start of the game, reduces city maintenance, and never obsoletes!

    As for the start - to me it's slightly above average. Irrigated rice (thank goodness it's irrigated) is good, as well as the floodplains and the river make the start quite nice.

    Depending on if you have AH resources or not, your tech path in the early game will vary. If you have pigs/cows/sheep somewhere then I would probably research AH first (at least you have both prerequisites already).

    Lastly - good luck! :goodjob:
     
  3. Riot

    Riot Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    I hate Shaka so much I hope you lose. :V
     
  4. civver_764

    civver_764 Deity

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,436
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    ^ Lol.

    Looks like a great start, and from your performance in your previous games I'm pretty confident you can pull out a victory here. We'll see. Settle in place seems obvious, then Mining->BW and then Archery? It's hard to tell since we can't see the other resources that'll be in the BFC just yet.
     
  5. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Thanks :)
    The start is pretty good indeed, but if there's no other resource (flood plains may block them) then the Incense really is more bothersome.

    Hahaha! The best part about playing him is, he's not in the game, right? (well technically he is but he's not coming for you :D)

    We'll have to see about the surrounding lands before stating that victory is possible ;)
    Even then, funny things do happen on Deity a lot of the time.
    Archery again will depend on the land near us. It's still possible there's copper in the BFC or that the land is easy to fogbust with warriors only.
    Last game was a bit of a stretch for barbs but I couldn't really spare the beakers (however it cost a lot of gpt to have so many warriors early on and probably more hammers than Archers would have cost I guess). Here commerce looks abundant so it's an option to keep in mind.

    ~~~

    I think I'll take the scout north first. Get a look at the river might prove interesting.
     
  6. Frankthetank

    Frankthetank Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    72
    Location:
    on the air
    There's lots of food potential with the flood plains and irrigated rice - I agree with your comments. My only concern is the wasted spice taking up a potential bonus resource. But I've learned in your series not to doubt your initial location since you seem to pull rabbits out of .... Like that previous culture win with Catherine and Ragnar next to you.
     
  7. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    Brasil!
    lol

    shaka is a very good leader, and the fact that by playing him you won't have to face him, could easily make him the best leader...

    I hate him too....

    on another matter, I would consider expansive to be an economy tech... faster workers mean you can grow faster while still keeping economy balanced, due to working the good tiles sooner, and having cities connected earlier.
     
  8. Inso

    Inso Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    Expansive is one of the most balanced traits in the game I think, faster workers and granaries early on is pretty significant; plus that +2H is great for mid-late game growth and means FW isn't so crucial early on.

    Hoping to see some leveraging of the AGG trait here though. ;)
     
  9. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,711
    Settling in place looks like a no-brainer here.

    As for tech path, we will need to see what happens after the Scout is moved and the first city is settled.
     
  10. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Round 0

    I settled in place with some good and some bad news.
    Spoiler :


    Good: cows, maybe at the end of a peninsula
    Bad: Another incense, maybe at the end of a peninsula


    A quick analysis of the city, assuming mines rather than windmills.
    Spoiler :


    -3 food... not a great cottage site. +1 with windmills is scarcely better, but it'll be a good production city. Hopefully the river will reveal a good commerce site, although this one isn't bad for this early on.


    Finally, a quick guess at the opening techs.
    Spoiler :


    AH for the cows obviously. There's still room for horses to appear in our BFC or they could be in a nearby spot.
    Archery is still a question mark at this point.
    The Wheel/Pottery probably shouldn't be delayed too long neither should border pops.


    Scouting of the surroundings will give a much better idea on how to proceed. Are we close to the AI? Is there tons of land for barbs to harass us? Is there a high priority site to grab?
    Questions I'm hoping to answer in a little while.
     
  11. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,955
    I'd farm, no cottages
     
  12. EMT

    EMT Hated by the Spaniards(?)

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    467
    :agree: with the above.

    I think the plains tile next to the 2 flood plains MIGHT have some form of resource. Tell me if I'm right later. :D I think you're right about it most likely being horses, although copper/iron is also possible. Not much more to comment on, but I wish you luck! I've never played Shaka properly, I have to say.
     
  13. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Round 1

    Worker first while researching Animal Husbandry was the word of the day.

    Looking at the forests' shade (darker and lighter) I conclude we are south of the jungle strip. (darker is more southern/northern than lighter) and by assuming we're on a peninsula's end, I send the scout along the river.

    Where I would meet the first AI after a few turns.
    Spoiler :


    t7 is good, he's on the other side of the jungle so I can get several cities.
    Spoiler :
    The land is pretty good, albeit stuck under jungle.


    Once AH completes, you can see horses just right next to the river. That is going to be my second city and I don't need Archery as a result (not that I needed Chariots really for that matter as you'll see.)
    Spoiler :


    There's a rare sight without Huts. Hammy has Writing on turn 26!
    Spoiler :


    For dealing with barbs, I had my initial scout (who survived) take care of the western part of the peninsula and two warriors a bit north of my capital posted in forests. They took care of everything by themselves amazingly. Moreover, having little fogbusters and a lot of fog means barb cities had a better chance to spawn. You can just see the edge of one of them on the previous screenshot.

    This was good as it meant I needed less settlers to grab land, and the land itself was safer.

    Second city is settled to work rice+horses in the first culture ring.
    Spoiler :


    Techs after AH were Mining>BW>TW>Pottery>Myst>Writing.

    The second AI I met was from a workboat. I assumed at first he was intercontinental but he was simply behind Hammurabi.
    Spoiler :


    This was my 3rd city site. Axes would be my settlers here. You can see the barb cities that spawned and meant I didn't have to fear barbs so much. I did build 2 Chariots just in case though.
    Spoiler :

    One of the chariots would pay for both of them eventually! Barbs are very bad with their worker micro.



    More AIs started to drift in, making this more crowded than I originally thought.
    Spoiler :




    The barb cities were easily captured. Aggressive was useful to get good attacking odds.
    Spoiler :
    Oh goody, marble! You know where this will lead...

    This one I razed as it was on top of a rice resource.

    I had a settler ready though to make sure I didn't lose the spot.




    Once Hinduism spread, it was pretty much a no-brainer to adopt it. Brennus was at least behind Hammurabi and they had no open borders.
    Spoiler :


    Speaking of which, I joined a fake war against Brennus with Hammurabi and Gandhi for some diplo.
    Spoiler :


    Once I was pretty certain I would get The Parthenon (actually, it was pre-chopped to almost insta-completion), I could start trading.
    Spoiler :


    This is all I could get from Hammy :S



    Speaking of The Parthenon...
    Spoiler :
    The turn prior to that had 4 chops.




    I eventually bought out of the Brennus war, even though it hadn't cost me anything. Aesthetics was known to everyone so it was a cheap bargain.
    Spoiler :


    Literature allowed me to pull a similar trick.
    Spoiler :




    And it was also good enough to get a few trades in.
    Spoiler :




    So this covers the initial phase. Next up is catching up technologically (Justinian switched to Bureaucracy in 400BC!!! and Philosophy was bulbed somewhere in 750BC).
    Nobody here knows Philosophy so it will be a good trading chip.
    I also need to get my hands on happiness as I'm pretty limited on that side for the moment.

    I had an Impi exploring but had to delete him before Brennus could kill him (ended next to one of his GWs) and I've just sent out a Chariot to scout out the land a bit. The techrate is pretty furious so far but I have quite a bit of land (7 good cities up, room for 1 or 2 more) meaning I can always catch up in production somewhere around Rifles hehe.

    Techs
    Spoiler :




    Diplo
    Spoiler :


    Overview of the known land (larger to get a better look). It's flipped 270 degrees in case you're wondering.
    Spoiler :


    I can get a city by the cows on the small tip for a Moai site.
    Another city on top of the silk to grab stone and whales eventually.

    The banana/sugars/rice site looks like a fantastic Globe Theatre site.

    So I ended up putting a few cottages in Ulundi after all. I will possibly farm over the unworked ones (I have 11 workers and just recently acquired Iron Working as you'll remember. Maybe more roads would have been better.)

    I think this game might be one where Domination is a good idea. We'll see. More thoughts tomorrow, I gotta go for now.
     
  14. SilentConfusion

    SilentConfusion Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,617
    Location:
    Wherever
    Is this done because if Brennus kills him he'll have war success over you and won't take peace so easily, or for some other reason that I'm not thinking of?
     
  15. Riot

    Riot Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Yep, he'll think he's winning so he might want more/less for peace.

    Geez, Civil Service on Justinian in the BCs? That's not fair.
     
  16. Inso

    Inso Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    Nice land and an astonishing AI techrate :eek:, which I guess is down to them having equally nice land.

    Given how fast they are teching war seems like the best option, great globe site right next to the enemy too.
     
  17. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2004
    Messages:
    2,301
    Location:
    Settle in place
    Nice land is a bit of an understatement. That river/jungle land is nothing short of godly. If you can get your hands on that land you should be able to pull pretty much any win out of the hat.

    Following with great interest! :)
     
  18. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    All those sugar tiles should net you all the :) resources you need. Trading for calendar earlier than usual is probably in the works.
     
  19. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    As Riot mentioned, it counts against me on the war success meaning it might have cost more - or he might not have wanted to talk for a long time even. Second reason is it gives him less experience on that unit and no GG experience.

    Yea... I played a short round and it became obvious why.

    War seems like a good option indeed, the only dangerous AI this far is Brennus. Hammurabi is rarely a threat, Justinian is small and Gandhi is Gandhi...

    There's no gems in the jungle, so how can it be very nice? :D
    No, it's very nice indeed, and that's one hell of a long river. Come steam power, I'm gonna have some production powerhouses there.

    Calendar is indeed a trade in the works. I traded resources away in the meantime but I'll update the trades as they become available.
     
  20. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Round 2

    I played a short round today, but I'd say it was a profitable one.

    I started by 0% researching Sailing to open up a Calendar trade, this took 3 turns and allowed me to accumulate some more gold for deficit spending.

    When Sailing was in, I noticed Drama was researched and Hammurabi had gotten Music. Compass wasn't known to anyone however at that time so it was a better trade chip.
    Spoiler :


    I also got Calendar from Hammurabi but somehow the screenshot is lost. Justinian however researched it so no trade was available with him.


    Naturally, Gandhi never fares well at war.
    Spoiler :


    Oh, and the reason for the furious tech rate?
    Spoiler :


    He's intercontinental. I haven't open borders yet as I don't have a visible network to his cities. A workboat is looking for a way however.


    I researched Code of Laws, Meditation and Drama next. Drama would net me a good lump of gold from Brennus and Mansa but no techs.

    Next, I put a turn of research into Civil Service and used a Great Scientist I'd been saving up.
    Spoiler :


    Philosophy was only known to Mansa but he's not the one who founded Taoism in 750BC, so the trades were finally available.

    Before
    Spoiler :


    Trades
    Spoiler :





    After
    Spoiler :


    I revolted the same turn to Civil Service+Hereditary Rule. This may have been a mistake, I should have gone Caste+Pacifism as well to spit out some Great Scientists... I only realized it the next turn.
    Spoiler :


    Which brings us to a stopping point. Phase two is in transit, I've caught up with the more important techs even though I'm a few behind the AIs.

    Techs
    Spoiler :




    Diplomacy - Brennus is at war with Justinian who built the AP in hinduism.
    Spoiler :


    I can stop the war, but at a price. Brennus will most likely keep pounding on the heathens however. I just need to make sure he doesn't gain too much ground before I can mount my own assault. I have a chariot in Justinian's land and will survey the flow of the war and decide accordingly if things should go bad.
    Spoiler :


    A view of the known land
    Spoiler :


    Top 5 cities.
    Spoiler :

    SH in 2760BC is fast
    Sankore in 1AD is pretty fast
    Notre Dame is also pretty fast in 125AD


    And the final AI seems to be just west of Gandhi. I'm not sure if it's Mansa, the color is a bit shaded. It could be Huayna Capac and explain some of the wonder dates.
    Spoiler :


    As things stand now, I don't seem to have a great shot at Liberalism, should Mansa/unknown civ gun for it. I do have the Liberalism bulb opened however so if it should come down to the wire, it might give me just a little push I need.

    As for war options, mounted warfare would be fun here. I just have to see if I can get there fast enough to make it worth it. I think Domination will require me to get a hold of the second landmass but it could be fun given the leader.

    We'll see in the next few days.
     

Share This Page