Dragging Late Game When Victory Inevitable

[hithere21]

This is probably already been discussed in a different thread but I can't find it.

Been playing mod for about a year now but have taken a break the past few months. I noticed in my most recent morocco game that that late game seems to drag out and it is harder to runaway with tech. Wanted to check if this was a recent change or just unique to my game. It is about turn 450, I have finished freedom, have 73 techs and am 7 techs ahead of the next person. Haven't had a moment of peace the entire game as wars keep getting brokered against me (didn't declare war once all game). Getting completely screwed by the WC. Been sanctioned and had travel ban passed (going for culture victory). I am influential over all civs but one (one left is 85%) Everyone took order but I went tradition which is also taking a hit out of tourism.

So I guess I have a few questions,
1. Does the AI just realize you are going to win and desperately tries to stop you using any means possible?

2. Are games expected to last until turn 500 with recent balance changes?

3. What are the major factors that go into a civ hating you. It seemed like civs would flop back and fourth between loving me and hating me all game.


Sorry for all the questions but would love at least some general feedback. Thanks so much for the mod!

 

[grmagne]

This is probably already been discussed in a different thread but I can't find it.

Been playing mod for about a year now but have taken a break the past few months. I noticed in my most recent morocco game that that late game seems to drag out and it is harder to runaway with tech. Wanted to check if this was a recent change or just unique to my game. It is about turn 450, I have finished freedom, have 73 techs and am 7 techs ahead of the next person. Haven't had a moment of peace the entire game as wars keep getting brokered against me (didn't declare war once all game). Getting completely screwed by the WC. Been sanctioned and had travel ban passed (going for culture victory). I am influential over all civs but one (one left is 85%) Everyone took order but I went tradition which is also taking a hit out of tourism.

So I guess I have a few questions,
1. Does the AI just realize you are going to win and desperately tries to stop you using any means possible?

2. Are games expected to last until turn 500 with recent balance changes?

3. What are the major factors that go into a civ hating you. It seemed like civs would flop back and fourth between loving me and hating me all game.


Sorry for all the questions but would love at least some general feedback. Thanks so much for the mod!

1. Yes. If one civ is overwhelmingly likely to win the game, the AI will often gang up on the leader.

2. Not to turn 500, usually they end sooner than that. But with the recent CEP Wonder for culture victory and ongoing AI refinements many games take longer to play now than they did previously.

3. I find that a civ can be your friend most of the game but when you become too powerful they'll accept a bribe from another civ to declare war on you. If you're just middle-of-the-pack then you can maintain a friendship for the whole game. I find that being a warmonger, stealing territory and breaking promises are the easiest ways to be hated. If you want a civ to like you then usually you have to declare friendships with their friends, make them a trade partner, sharing a religion helps, and never declare friends with one of their enemies.

 

[ElliotS]

This is probably already been discussed in a different thread but I can't find it.

Been playing mod for about a year now but have taken a break the past few months. I noticed in my most recent morocco game that that late game seems to drag out and it is harder to runaway with tech. Wanted to check if this was a recent change or just unique to my game. It is about turn 450, I have finished freedom, have 73 techs and am 7 techs ahead of the next person. Haven't had a moment of peace the entire game as wars keep getting brokered against me (didn't declare war once all game). Getting completely screwed by the WC. Been sanctioned and had travel ban passed (going for culture victory). I am influential over all civs but one (one left is 85%) Everyone took order but I went tradition which is also taking a hit out of tourism.

So I guess I have a few questions,
1. Does the AI just realize you are going to win and desperately tries to stop you using any means possible?

2. Are games expected to last until turn 500 with recent balance changes?

3. What are the major factors that go into a civ hating you. It seemed like civs would flop back and fourth between loving me and hating me all game.


Sorry for all the questions but would love at least some general feedback. Thanks so much for the mod!

1- Yes. Like a player would, who cares if you're 7 techs behind, they're about to win.

2- Games last longer on lower difficulties and speeds. I can't tell you without that information.

3- A whole lot. You can read the formula here.

Biggest mistake people have (especially when playing defensive) is having too small a military. If you look weak the AI will pounce.

 

[hithere21]

Thanks for the quick replies. I am playing on King and Normal. Game finally Ended on turn 499. I only had one techs left but the AI was super behind (next best was 69 techs)

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Maybe time to move up a level or two? I find that playing on higher levels a.) the games end faster (in fewer turns) and b.) the outcome is much more uncertain due to AIs' late-game increased bonuses.

 

[Jdoug312]

The jump from king to emperor is pretty steep, so I'd recommend going there instead of straight to immortal, despite your landslide win at king.

 

[Gidoza]

Maybe time to move up a level or two? I find that playing on higher levels a.) the games end faster (in fewer turns) and b.) the outcome is much more uncertain due to AIs' late-game increased bonuses.

Why do games end faster on higher levels? You'd think it would make the game take longer and be tougher.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The AI recieves more bonuses towards growth and production. Bigger citiese which build their infrastructure faster generate in total more culture and science.
The tech leader works like a catalyst. Techs researched by others lower the tech cost, and trade routes gives more science and culture. So even the nations in the backyard have options to increase their science.
(In my opinion this mechanic is far too strong, atleast tech wise. A game with my mates let them increase their tech by around 30-40%, only by sending their trade routes to me, cause I was early tech leader)

Additionally, starting from emperor, AI nations are able to construct buildings and units fast enough, to set their cities to processes. If they have hit their military cap and already everything build, they translate their hammers into science and culture. This happens at around the industrial age, especially for nations which are not that strong involved in wars. Iam a bit worried about the direct translation from production handicap towards science and culture, but I dont think it wil change.

 

[ElliotS]

The AI recieves more bonuses towards growth and production. Bigger citiese which build their infrastructure faster generate in total more culture and science.
The tech leader works like a catalyst. Techs researched by others lower the tech cost, and trade routes gives more science and culture. So even the nations in the backyard have options to increase their science.
(In my opinion this mechanic is far too strong, atleast tech wise. A game with my mates let them increase their tech by around 30-40%, only by sending their trade routes to me, cause I was early tech leader)

Additionally, starting from emperor, AI nations are able to construct buildings and units fast enough, to set their cities to processes. If they have hit their military cap and already everything build, they translate their hammers into science and culture. This happens at around the industrial age, especially for nations which are not that strong involved in wars. Iam a bit worried about the direct translation from production handicap towards science and culture, but I dont think it wil change.

I mean the way you say it makes it sound like it's impossible for the human to win. We can get ahead pretty early and stay there all game now with the improved AI handicap scaling. Mind that requires playing well and you can certainly fall off, but the fact is that if the AI didn't have that much production and other bonuses it would be trivial to win on higher difficulties.

 

[CppMaster]

The tech leader works like a catalyst. Techs researched by others lower the tech cost, and trade routes gives more science and culture. So even the nations in the backyard have options to increase their science.
(In my opinion this mechanic is far too strong, atleast tech wise. A game with my mates let them increase their tech by around 30-40%, only by sending their trade routes to me, cause I was early tech leader)

 

[CrazyG]

Why do games end faster on higher levels? You'd think it would make the game take longer and be tougher.

When someone has good science, it actually speeds up everyone else's science (its not just trade routes, lots of things contribute). If everyone has stronger science, the world congress comes sooner. Late-game tourism bonuses come sooner. Basically everything happens sooner, and this snowballs too (if I build my water-mills on turn 70 instead of 80, that causes me to build basically everything else earlier too).

Its also why happiness becomes more difficult on higher difficulties. You discover techs more quickly causing the unhappiness, but have the same amount of precious hammers to build things to fight unhappiness.

With that said, it often does make the game longer. Like if I played on Chieftan, I could probably win a cultural victory as soon as its available. The same game on Deity, it might be more of a battle. I might even have to win by science instead if culture and diplomacy stalemate, which makes for a much longer game.

 

[Gokudo01]

Love dat meme

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I mean the way you say it makes it sound like it's impossible for the human to win. We can get ahead pretty early and stay there all game now with the improved AI handicap scaling. Mind that requires playing well and you can certainly fall off, but the fact is that if the AI didn't have that much production and other bonuses it would be trivial to win on higher difficulties.

It depends on circumstances. Ive played an earth map, which have more luxuries than normal maps and increase the overall performance of all nations. In that game, some nations had process quotes of 30-60%, and not only for 1 or 2 turns.
I think the former introduction of the production handicap was to counter the higher losses of AI in war time. And this is ok. But its still also a production cost reduction for everything, and I see focus to whole production a bit critic.

Half year ago, ive played germany and reached over 1k production in my capitol and 500-800 in my other cities. I think you can imagine what happened, if you switch all those cities to culture or process

 

[Recursive]

Violence is always the answer!

I think you can imagine what happened, if you switch all those cities to culture or process

Oh no. No no no no no. Not this again. Please, have mercy!

 

[Gazebo]

Violence is always the answer!



Oh no. No no no no no. Not this again. Please, have mercy!

'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to inflict their repetition on others for all eternity.'
- Gandhi

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to inflict their repetition on others for all eternity.'
- Gandhi

G

Funny.... iam watching at the moment a documentary about gandhi.
Do not worry, I did not want to continue, I know you can not sympathize with my misgivings. There are things that are as they are.

 

[Gidoza]

When someone has good science, it actually speeds up everyone else's science (its not just trade routes, lots of things contribute). If everyone has stronger science, the world congress comes sooner. Late-game tourism bonuses come sooner. Basically everything happens sooner, and this snowballs too (if I build my water-mills on turn 70 instead of 80, that causes me to build basically everything else earlier too).

Its also why happiness becomes more difficult on higher difficulties. You discover techs more quickly causing the unhappiness, but have the same amount of precious hammers to build things to fight unhappiness.

With that said, it often does make the game longer. Like if I played on Chieftan, I could probably win a cultural victory as soon as its available. The same game on Deity, it might be more of a battle. I might even have to win by science instead if culture and diplomacy stalemate, which makes for a much longer game.

Right - I knew how the mechanic worked, I just didn't think it through all the way. I guess there isn't much way to make the AI tougher at higher levels without giving a tech boost as well, is there?

 

[Recursive]

Right - I knew how the mechanic worked, I just didn't think it through all the way. I guess there isn't much way to make the AI tougher at higher levels without giving a tech boost as well, is there?

They don't receive a direct discount to techs or free techs (both of which they got in vanilla), but on difficulties above Chieftain they can grow and build Science buildings more quickly; they also periodically gain an instant yield bonus of Food and Production (in every city), Science, Culture, Gold and Golden Age Points when certain events are triggered.

That said the AI does also get smarter at higher difficulties: there are certain handicap values which at lower difficulties randomize city production, tech and policy choices between the top 2/3. On Immortal and Deity, there is no randomization of this kind.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I still ask me, if it wouldnt be easier to simply give the AI some small discount on policies, techs and growth, instead of a complex system of yields by events, new era or lost units (and so on).
It would be at least calculable and man-comprehensible.
The production bonus of the AI I would prefer to refer mainly to units and only half to buildings.
Or reduce it in principle to half and increase only in times of war to the current value. This would give the player the incentive to end AI wars as quickly as possible.
But the smartness of the AI could be increased, making the best decision already at king difficulty. Ive seen sometimes even in Emperor difficulty some strange pantheon picks (india starts in a giant desert with plenty of bonus ressources but picked goddess of festivals (bonus for every unique luxury)

 

[Gidoza]

They don't receive a direct discount to techs or free techs (both of which they got in vanilla), but on difficulties above Chieftain they can grow and build Science buildings more quickly; they also periodically gain an instant yield bonus of Food and Production (in every city), Science, Culture, Gold and Golden Age Points when certain events are triggered.

That said the AI does also get smarter at higher difficulties: there are certain handicap values which at lower difficulties randomize city production, tech and policy choices between the top 2/3. On Immortal and Deity, there is no randomization of this kind.

Interesting - I would have thought that at lower difficulties, randomization wouldn't be necessary because a human will beat an AI with equal resources handily (unless the AI is REALLY smart). It seems unnecessary for there to be a randomization handicap on top of the already-being-not-human handicap.

Has there been any thought of implementing Google's Swift Mind or whatever it's called, the learning AI that can trump human players by learning?