[NFP] Dramatic Ages Discussion Thread

[acluewithout]

Firaxis has been asking for feedback for every component of NFP, so I have faith they will revisit every game mode.

Agreed. And we have seen some small tweaks, eg fixing how forest fire works, and having Soothsayers help trigger Armageddon (by giving them CO2 emissions, but just ignore that bit ;-) ).

My only complaint is that I don't like the Idea of instant loss. I'd prefer if you had a few turns before they rebel, so you can prepare for it if your civ is in a better situation or not.

I think it’s fine as is. I get where you’re coming from, but because you can recapture rebel Cities I don’t think you really need a warning they are going to rebel. As in, the rebellion is itself the warning you might lose the city (if you don’t react to recapture or). Might depend a little on how these rebel cities are chosen, but overall I think his is pretty good Mechanic.

snip

I have a thread with the changes I’d suggest for the game modes (link). None of them are huge changes.

It really is frustrating. Maybe I’m just being really one-eyed about it, but I honestly think all the modes would be a million times better with a few small changes.

Apocalypse Mode. Just make Soothsayers a bit more restricted, eg require a tech to unlock them or you only get them in a dark age, and have a few more ways to manipulate disasters, eg Apostles Promotions, Religious Beliefs, “Weather Satellite”, whatever. Personally, I’d like to see Zombies added or, if not, have a separate game mode where Barbs spawn Zombies etc., so you can really double down on the End Of The World vibe.

Secret Societies. Cut down the free Governor Titles - maybe just a free title if you’re the first to discover a SS. Have better trade-offs for having a SS, eg negative alliance points for Civs with a different SS, lose envoys with certain City States aligned with other Societies. And have a Casus Belli and or World Congress Resolutions that target particular Secret Societies.

Dramatic Ages. Keep the nastier dark ages, keep the Golden age policy cards. Just add back normal ages and dedications (which, with the Golden Age Policy Cards, would be focused on Era Score only).

Shuffle Mode. Basically perfect. Just fix the bugs, and figure out a way to avoid having Techs unlock before any tech required to get the relevant Eureka (or don’t, I guess, but yeah please fix the bugs).

Anyway. I’ve banged this drum more than enough. NFP has been an experiment, and I’m glad Firaxis tried this model. It’s mostly worked and, yeah, I’d do a second season pass if they decide to try again. Firaxis have asked for feedback, and made clear they’re reading these posts. So, they either take this stuff on board or not. I’ll be thrilled if they do. If they don’t, hey, the existing modes are still “cute”, and I like the new Civs and other small bits of content. So, it’s fine. Just a bit frustrating it feels the whole thing is just a couple of tweaks away from “awesome”.

 

[Galvatron]

You have plenty of time to prepare while you see the coming dark age.

You mean 'if'. And I'm not taking about the timing, I'm talking about the spacing. Space doesn't progress.

Edit: and a reminder that a feature of this game mod is that you will be on the razor's edge until the next age, as normal ages do not exist.

 

[kb27787]

If anything, it buffs tall cities (now the pressure scales with overflow of era score) and you get the initial flips once the age starts so you have plenty more time of getting more cities to flip afterwards (the domino effect), I'm all for anything that nerfs the infinite city sprawl and warmongering that is the current meta.

I hope they make loyalty pressure EXTREMELY harsh for cities you did not found yourself, including city states as well. I want to see a BNW-esque collapse for civs that overexpand and neglect wonder-building or infrastructure (in BNW, civs that simply conquer without stopping get hit with almost -100 happiness when ideological pressure comes in)

 

[AntSou]

I hope they make loyalty pressure EXTREMELY harsh for cities you did not found yourself, including city states as well.

They don't have to. Free Cities will be causing loyalty pressure so that by itself should have an effect quite unlike what we're accostumed to.

You mean 'if'. And I'm not taking about the timing, I'm talking about the spacing. Space doesn't progress.

What does that mean?

 

[tedhebert]

I'm still going to wait and see on this... I still think this has the capacity to be the best game mode yet, but also think it's going to be very hard to fine tune it.

Taking out the dedications, for me, seems to imply an added importance to exploring, as many, many era score points are related to discovering stuff. IMHO, this can only be good. of course,
I'm already a heavy explorer player, so it fits with my tastes, but... anything that could make recon units more useful would be fantastic... would be even better if they went the extra yard and reworked the promotions for recon a little to make it better ;-)

Also, maybe Amani becomes an option for first choice governor, if exploring becomes primordial, with the amani CS hopping scheme ?

I really can't wait to try this one out

 

[leandrombraz]

If anyone is looking for something to make religious victories harder, this mode might do the trick, since it will fill the map with free cities, turning it into a mine field of hostile units that will try to kill your religious units.

 

[8housesofelixir]

If anyone is looking for something to make religious victories harder, this mode might do the trick, since it will fill the map with free cities, turning it into a mine field of hostile units that will try to kill your religious units.

Khmer: Ah, yes, all I want is a larger relic collection...

 

[leandrombraz]

Khmer: Ah, yes, all I want is a larger relic collection...

Unless the Martyr promotion has a bug that I'm not aware of, that wouldn't work since it's supposed to give you a relic only if the unit dies in Theological Combat (killed by a religious unit)

 

[Galvatron]

What does that mean?

Space can be traversed at will whereas time cannot.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Unless the Martyr promotion has a bug that I'm not aware of, that wouldn't work since it's supposed to give you a relic only if the unit dies in Theological Combat (killed by a religious unit)

Ohhhh, my bad, Martyr promotion only works when Apostles are throwing lightings.

On the other hand, the Cultist of the Voidsingers will create a relic when being physically killed. And to my knowledge AI will kill them on sight as they are considered as support units rather than religious units.

 

[walkerjks]

Cities rebelling in dark ages? Eleanor approves.

 

[Sostratus]

This seems like it will pair well with the Byzantines for ambiance. Surviving dark ages and dealing with rioting cities and all that. Especially on higher difficulty when the AI has an upper hand there.

 

[Galvatron]

Cities rebelling in dark ages? Eleanor approves.

I'm not sure Eleanor knows what a free city is.

This seems like it will pair well with the Byzantines for ambiance. Surviving dark ages and dealing with rioting cities and all that. Especially on higher difficulty when the AI has an upper hand there.

Not really related, but that just gave me an idea:

I was thinking that it''d be neat if cities throughout a dark age would rebel occasionally, instead of instantly loosing cities all at once you would randomly have a city that decides to secede, and it vamooses... and inversely in a golden age cities would randomly enter celebrations...

Also it'd be neat if in the same way entering a dark age causes instant secession entering a golden age causes immediate... something. A burst of growth, a wave of loyalty pressure, a free great person, bonus production, a free settler or something.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Weird coincidence, but while working on a mod I was searching through the text files and I came across what seems to be left over text from the old dark age system that Anton mentioned in the update video. Not really relevant to the new mode, but I just thought it was interesting.

<Row Tag="LOC_GAME_ERA_POPUP_DARK_AGE_DESCRIPTION">
<Text>Dark Ages are possible beginning in the Medieval era and pose challenges to large or underdeveloped civilizations. -1 [ICON_Amenities] Amenity and -50% Growth in all cities. If a player gets a Dark Age again in the next era, half of their cities will fall into ruin and become barbarian camps.[NEWLINE]These players have entered a Dark Age for this era:</Text>

It's located in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\DLC\Expansion1\Text\en_US\Expansion1_Eras_Text.xml

 

[AriochIV]

Weird coincidence, but while working on a mod I was searching through the text files and I came across what seems to be left over text from the old dark age system that Anton mentioned in the update video. Not really relevant to the new mode, but I just thought it was interesting.


It's located in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\DLC\Expansion1\Text\en_US\Expansion1_Eras_Text.xml

HALF? That's absurd.

 

[Sostratus]

HALF? That's absurd.

By the Middle Ages it would be the Last Bastion of Civilization vs the endless carpet of Barbarians. Holy cow not even free cities, direct to barb camps. OOF.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

By the Middle Ages it would be the Last Bastion of Civilization vs the endless carpet of Barbarians. Holy cow not even free cities, direct to barb camps. OOF.

Well, what are free cities except barbarian that learned how to build houses?

The endless carpet would still be here, especially if a lot of people enter a dark age. If that's the case, I'd say "fudge it" and embrace our new free overlords.

 

[darkace77450]

Well, what are free cities except barbarian that learned how to build houses?

Learned how to build houses, and forgot how to scout.

 

[hazarius_a]

Well I don't agree. Of course normal ages will not be desirable in their own right, but normal ages should be desirable as in being not-dark ages. That's the problem with the current system, because dark ages are not really punishing, and furthermore opens up for heroic ages, and therefore you'll actually rather end in a dark age than in a normal age.

If dark ages are actually punishing and does not "reward" you with potentially powerful dark-age policies and a possible heroic age, there'll be no reason to go for a dark age instead of a normal age. That's how it should be. Basically you should always try to amass as much era score as possible. When you hit a normal age, that should not be a good thing in itself - you'd rather have hit a golden age - but still it's a reward because it means you avoided ending in a dark age.

I absolutely agree to that. Normal ages are the reasonable goal if you entered a golden age and expand your empire. If you fall into a dark age afterwards you might not be able to hold cities close to your neighbors, who might enter a golden or even heroic age next era. Having a normal age helps you to take a short breath and rise and shine again in the upcoming eras.
Taking away that 'buffer-zone' of some sort puts the game to some extremes and the goal would be to avoid pushed from one extreme to another.

However, what I don't like, with the reveal of the Byzantine civ, it seems that they now design Civs which are easily capable to roll from one golden age to another: The era score from converting an enemy city to your religion alone is one of the highest score-events one can get over and over again. Which makes an already OP civ even more OP in that game mode. Loyalty will act as a invisible force wave in their favor before you might even spot a single cavalry unit in certain games. I wouldn't have any issue with that as long you're able to counter it somehow. But I'm afraid this is too much force on too many levels to cope with.

 

[acluewithout]

Weird coincidence, but while working on a mod I was searching through the text files and I came across what seems to be left over text from the old dark age system that Anton mentioned in the update video. Not really relevant to the new mode, but I just thought it was interesting.


It's located in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\DLC\Expansion1\Text\en_US\Expansion1_Eras_Text.xml

By the Middle Ages it would be the Last Bastion of Civilization vs the endless carpet of Barbarians. Holy cow not even free cities, direct to barb camps. OOF.

Mother Forking Shirtballs!

-1 Amenities, -50% Growth. Two in a row and it gets really wild. Can’t even recapture the cities, coz now they’re barb camps!

Can we have it? Please? Pleeease?

It would hurt so good.

Hairy Jesus! It would just hurt if it was just some Civ next door! All the Barbs!!