Drm?

[moopoo]

I, personally, don't think firaxis/take 2 will have anything more than serial number, copy protection, blah blah, non-invasive anti piracy methods. the Civ series is one of the most community driven franchises around (they release source code, for god's sake), and i doubt they would work so hard to pay attention to fan desires just to completely ignore this concern. let's not get pessimistic here guys.

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

The fact it appeared on Steam the day it was announced, makes me wonder whether it will be a Steam Works title and use Steam's activation system as DRM (which may or may not be limited to just that).

 

[Taalen]

The fact it appeared on Steam the day it was announced, makes me wonder whether it will be a Steam Works title and use Steam's activation system as DRM (which may or may not be limited to just that).

For those unfortunate souls that buy their games from Steam, most likely.

For those of us that don't like the notion of someone erasing their whole game collection at the click of a button because they may, for example, think you bought a game from the wrong country, it won't be a problem. There are reasons enough not to let Steam infest your computer.

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

Steam accounts don't get disabled for purchasing games from other regions. Some physical copies of games won't activate on a Steam account outside the designated region though, but they clearly state that on the box. You may think that in itself is harsh, but it's a result of different regions being offered different prices. Setting one fixed rate globally isn't a workable idea. If the prices are set at the rate you'd find in wealthy countries, nobody in the poorer parts of the world will buy them and probably just pirate them. Set them at the rate they're sold for in the poorer parts of the world and a big bite is taken out of the developer's profit. Profit is somewhat useful for a developer.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

For those unfortunate souls that buy their games from Steam, most likely.

For those of us that don't like the notion of someone erasing their whole game collection at the click of a button because they may, for example, think you bought a game from the wrong country, it won't be a problem. There are reasons enough not to let Steam infest your computer.

Valve wont disable your account without some significant justification. Enabling a game from a different region is not one of those things. In fact, most of the time you wont even be able to do that. (Which is one of my few gripes with Steam)

Valve also has enough pull with its platform, Steam, that it can change what kind of DRM is used in a game. Believe me, Steam's DRM is much less intrusive than a vast majority of the DRM out there.

 

[Taalen]

Valve wont disable your account without some significant justification. Enabling a game from a different region is not one of those things. In fact, most of the time you wont even be able to do that. (Which is one of my few gripes with Steam)

I said nothing about disabling accounts, just removing games. And that's been known to happen without any valid reason supplied whatsoever. I'm not saying it's common. I'm saying it can happen, occasionally it will happen, and that I personally will not be a part of any system where that can be done.

Valve also has enough pull with its platform, Steam, that it can change what kind of DRM is used in a game. Believe me, Steam's DRM is much less intrusive than a vast majority of the DRM out there.

Think for a moment what you're saying. Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to have just said that you think it possible that Civ 5 might be in effect Steam-only. Games sold through Steam will obviously have Valve's DRM, but there's no way all copies of Civ 5 would include it, thus requiring Steam.

Steam DRM may be less intrusive than some, but Steam as a whole is a huge no-no for a certain breed of old fashioned players who will not tolerate anything trying to take the control of their own computer away from them.

But I've made my point and am beginning to astray. After all, this thread is for discussion about possible DRM in Civ 5, not my personal reasons for boycotting Steam

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

Steam Works games do require Steam, even if they're bought through a retailer.

 

[Auncien]

I do hope that the fine folks of Firaxis and Take Two realize that with the PC Civilization crowd they are dealing with a fairly intelligent (and principled) customer base and that anything beyond a disc check and cd-key would be going too far... so much so as to sabotage the profitability of the game itself and potentially destory interest in future offerings. I for one do not touch EA products anymore without exception, largely due to this issue.

edit: changed inaccurate publisher name.

 

[treinacles]

I, personally, don't think firaxis/take 2 will have anything more than serial number, copy protection, blah blah, non-invasive anti piracy methods. the Civ series is one of the most community driven franchises around (they release source code, for god's sake), and i doubt they would work so hard to pay attention to fan desires just to completely ignore this concern. let's not get pessimistic here guys.

I agree completely. People who pirate games will find a way no matter what method of DRM is used. Why punish loyal fans with rediculous DRM schemes that require anything more than having the origional disc. Requiring a steam account or a constant internet connection would piss me off! I havnt purchased a steam game since halflife2 because I didn't enjoy the requirement to install their drm management crapware

 

[Genocidicbunny]

Think for a moment what you're saying. Unless I'm mistaken, you seem to have just said that you think it possible that Civ 5 might be in effect Steam-only. Games sold through Steam will obviously have Valve's DRM, but there's no way all copies of Civ 5 would include it, thus requiring Steam.

Steam DRM may be less intrusive than some, but Steam as a whole is a huge no-no for a certain breed of old fashioned players who will not tolerate anything trying to take the control of their own computer away from them.

But I've made my point and am beginning to astray. After all, this thread is for discussion about possible DRM in Civ 5, not my personal reasons for boycotting Steam

You are indeed mistaken. I meant that if Civ 5 is sold on Steam, its possible it would only include Valve's DRM. It has been known to happen: Valve forces the publisher to remove all but Valve's own DRM as part of their agreement.

Unfortunately, you wont be playing Civ 5 though. I dont think Windows 95 will support it. After all, you don't want to lose control of your computer to Windows 98 and higher, do you?

 

[cspyr0]

You are indeed mistaken. I meant that if Civ 5 is sold on Steam, its possible it would only include Valve's DRM. It has been known to happen: Valve forces the publisher to remove all but Valve's own DRM as part of their agreement.

Unfortunately, you wont be playing Civ 5 though. I dont think Windows 95 will support it. After all, you don't want to lose control of your computer to Windows 98 and higher, do you?

I hope you're right, since I really like Steam. I doubt it, however, considering that GTA4 (another Take Two game) when sold on Steam still forces users to install Windows Live and this social network thing before it will work. We can all theorize that "oh the developers know we're a smart community etc." but in the end it's the publishers who make the decision to slap DRM on a product, and publishers only care about their bottom-line.

As a game gets older and its value drops the publishers stop caring as much about piracy, though. So if the DRM is really bad I will probably wait it out a while until it's removed like they did with Civ4.

 

[negZero]

Yep just like Total War all the idiots who have no idea how Steam works will come on out crying about how its somehow destroying how games are played. Leave Stream alone its great system, you just need to read the manual.

 

[treinacles]

Yep just like Total War all the idiots who have no idea how Steam works will come on out crying about how its somehow destroying how games are played. Leave Stream alone its great system, you just need to read the manual.

Steam doesn't destroy how games are played, but requiring somebody to create a completely unnessesary account and install additional software that has nothing to do with the actual game is, IMO, rediculous.

 

[negZero]

Steam doesn't destroy how games are played, but requiring somebody to create a completely unnessesary account and install additional software that has nothing to do with the actual game is, IMO, rediculous.

Then I guess you quit playing computer games once DirectX started being required?

 

[cspyr0]

Steam doesn't destroy how games are played, but requiring somebody to create a completely unnessesary account and install additional software that has nothing to do with the actual game is, IMO, rediculous.

I absolutely hated Steam when it came out, it was just another layer of bs to wade through to play my games. But now it actually adds value so that it's worth more than a pirated version of the game.

Through Steam I can upload save-games so i always have them, I can see what my friends are playing and (if it's supported) auto-join their server... Most importantly to install a game I just click a few times and walk away for a few hours while it downloads - no physical media to store/find, patches are automatically installed.

Usually when you pirate a game you get the same exact quality as if you'd bought it (often it's even less hassle), but Steam is successful because it adds value.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

For older Steam games its a good way to keep your games together. Newer games may in fact be designed with Steamworks which adds a ton of goodies. The biggest one is access to the Steam cloud for saves which means your game saves are available between multiple machines.

Steam also has game sales quite often, so you can get great games for cheap. When was the last time you could spend 100$ and get close to 60 games, games like Batman Arkham Asylum, Tropico 1/2, Bioshock or STALKER? I submit that Steam is pretty much the only place for these kinds of massive deals.

I bet you're one of those tho tried it back in the HL2 days, didnt like it and never bothered to even look if something changed.

 

[Taalen]

Steam Works games do require Steam, even if they're bought through a retailer.

Indeed they do. Did someone try to claim otherwise, since if they did, I failed to notice.

You are indeed mistaken. I meant that if Civ 5 is sold on Steam, its possible it would only include Valve's DRM. It has been known to happen: Valve forces the publisher to remove all but Valve's own DRM as part of their agreement.

So you are indeed trying to claim that you think Civ 5 will be Valve-exclusive? Considering it's published by 2K and not Valve, I find it simply impossible. Yes, Valve will sell it through Steam, no doubt. Yes, the copies sold through Steam will most likely only have Valve's DRM. No, there is absolutely no way Valve's DRM would replace conventional DRM for all copies of Civ 5. Did I make myself clear enough this time?

Unfortunately, you wont be playing Civ 5 though. I dont think Windows 95 will support it. After all, you don't want to lose control of your computer to Windows 98 and higher, do you?

Now you're just being childish. And here I was thinking I wasn't dealing with children.

I understand Steam may be a nice system for the masses that never really learned to use their computer properly or don't want to know how stuff works. Sure, simple is fine for some. For privacy-oriented people and those that want to buy games instead of renting them, however, Steam isn't much of a choice. If we're talking digital distribution, Impulse for example is much better from such consumers' point of view.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

So you are indeed trying to claim that you think Civ 5 will be Valve-exclusive? Considering it's published by 2K and not Valve, I find it simply impossible. Yes, Valve will sell it through Steam, no doubt. Yes, the copies sold through Steam will most likely only have Valve's DRM. No, there is absolutely no way Valve's DRM would replace conventional DRM for all copies of Civ 5. Did I make myself clear enough this time?

Your reading comprehension sucks.

if Civ 5 is sold on Steam

I never implied exclusivity to Steam.

Now you're just being childish. And here I was thinking I wasn't dealing with children.

I understand Steam may be a nice system for the masses that never really learned to use their computer properly or don't want to know how stuff works. Sure, simple is fine for some. For privacy-oriented people and those that want to buy games instead of renting them, however, Steam isn't much of a choice. If we're talking digital distribution, Impulse for example is much better from such consumers' point of view.

Then from one child to another, you long ago gave up control of your computer. Ever read a license agreement in the last...20 years? You dont have a right to the software, you have a right to use it as the company wants you to. Loss of control. I submit that any game from a major publisher in the last 5 years has carried a license that gives you the right to use the software, but it never gives you the software itself. In most cases, the license states that the publisher can rescind the license at pretty much any time. Also, please don't talk about 'consumers' point of view' since you seemingly have no idea what it means. You yourself said Steam is fine for the masses, therefore the consumers.

I ask you this, what OS do you run? If the answer is Windows anything, please leave this thread now. If the answer is Apple anything, please leave this thread now. If the answer is any precompiled Linux distro, please leave this thread now. You claim yourself to be security-minded, so lets see it in your OS choice.

 

[Taalen]

Your reading comprehension sucks.

I never implied exclusivity to Steam.

Well then. And these two things you said?

Valve also has enough pull with its platform, Steam, that it can change what kind of DRM is used in a game.

I meant that if Civ 5 is sold on Steam, its possible it would only include Valve's DRM. It has been known to happen: Valve forces the publisher to remove all but Valve's own DRM as part of their agreement.

Since obviously you haven't been able to grasp my meaning with two detailed posts, I'll put it as simply as possible: Do you or do you not believe that all copies of Civ 5 will use Valve DRM, or just those sold in Steam? Your messages imply that you believe the first case to be true, while I've explained that I believe the latter. This is the simple question I've been trying to get an answer from you. To further clarify, I considered a game with Valve DRM that requires Steam to run to be Steam exclusive (yes, there are better terms for it, but since that's the phrase used here I'll stick to it for simplicity's sake), regardless of where else it may or may not be sold.

Then from one child to another, you long ago gave up control of your computer. Ever read a license agreement in the last...20 years? You dont have a right to the software, you have a right to use it as the company wants you to. Loss of control. I submit that any game from a major publisher in the last 5 years has carried a license that gives you the right to use the software, but it never gives you the software itself. In most cases, the license states that the publisher can rescind the license at pretty much any time. Also, please don't talk about 'consumers' point of view' since you seemingly have no idea what it means. You yourself said Steam is fine for the masses, therefore the consumers.

Ever considered the fact that practically all software EULA's have legal status only in the United States, if even in there, and are in breach of local laws just about everywhere else? Also, explicitly said "such consumers", deliberately setting apart a certain group to which concerns such as mine apply. It seems it's not just me with a problem with reading comprehension in this thread. In all my posts I've made it very clear that all my opinions are personal and shared by a relatively small group of users.

I ask you this, what OS do you run? If the answer is Windows anything, please leave this thread now. If the answer is Apple anything, please leave this thread now. If the answer is any precompiled Linux distro, please leave this thread now. You claim yourself to be security-minded, so lets see it in your OS choice.

And now you're just trolling. My choice of OS is hardly relevant to my views on a software distribution system.

Also this discussion seems to have quite some time ago crossed the line of civil conversation. I suggest to either put an end to it or at the very least refraining from further insults, veiled and open. We obviously have differing views of Steam, and I have no problem with that. I'm glad if it works for many people, but there are reasons, some mentioned above, for which I personally choose not to use it.

 

[negZero]

Ever considered the fact that practically all software EULA's have legal status only in the United States,

Sorry but EULA apply to software sold anywhere at anytime, there contract.

if even in there, and are in breach of local laws just about everywhere else?

Again contract and still agruing over what says in the EULA is the dumbest move in the book because odds are you already broken local laws well before you've even hit the EULA.

Also, explicitly said "such consumers", deliberately setting apart a certain group to which concerns such as mine apply. It seems it's not just me with a problem with reading comprehension in this thread. In all my posts I've made it very clear that all my opinions are personal and shared by a relatively small group of users.

But your opinion is made by the lack of understanding of the merits of a piece of software (hint, Impulse uses Stream's playbook)

And now you're just trolling. My choice of OS is hardly relevant to my views on a software distribution system.

You say your privacy minded consumer and he just listed ever form privacy minded consumer would never use. Hes just trying to prove your full of it and have no clue what your talking about.

Also this discussion seems to have quite some time ago crossed the line of civil conversation. I suggest to either put an end to it or at the very least refraining from further insults, veiled and open. We obviously have differing views of Steam, and I have no problem with that. I'm glad if it works for many people, but there are reasons, some mentioned above, for which I personally choose not to use it.

And so far all your reasons listed above are nothing more then pure FUD.