Drm?

[moopoo]

let's not start fights here guys. you should turn all that anger towards DRM

 

[negZero]

let's not start fights here guys. you should turn all that anger towards DRM

Some of us realized at long time ago DRM is here to stay but theres a right and wrong way to do it. Steam is step in the right direction.

 

[Tarkhan]

While Impulse is good, Steam still wins based on having a bigger selection of games.

Actually I force all my non-steam games into steam, because it de-clutters my desktop. I don't mind having to be online to activate, as long as it lets me play single player without a connection (for example, my laptop when its out of wi-fi range)

 

[Taalen]

Sorry but EULA apply to software sold anywhere at anytime, there contract.

Nope, anything written in an EULA that goes against local rights of consumers, such as much of this license-nonsense isn't worth a dime. Also, at least around here EULA is instantly made invalid if you only get to read it after the purchase, which is often the case.

You say your privacy minded consumer and he just listed ever form privacy minded consumer would never use. Hes just trying to prove your full of it and have no clue what your talking about.

And so far all your reasons listed above are nothing more then pure FUD.

Trying to contribute to a conversation usually involves at least trying to give something to back up your claims. You didn't seem to have any intent other than trolling and mudslinging with your post.

Meh, I'm done feeding the trolls here.

 

[Arakhor]

Actually, you cannot make the EULA binding on a customer if it is not available to view when you buy the game, rather than install it. Isn't contract law wonderful?

 

[negZero]

Nope, anything written in an EULA that goes against local rights of consumers, such as much of this license-nonsense isn't worth a dime. Also, at least around here EULA is instantly made invalid if you only get to read it after the purchase, which is often the case.

Again say that in court you find you end up losing mainly out of the fact that EULA is usually there as a warning that if you break the law with the product they will drop the hammer on you. Plus the WIPO Copyright Treaty has made it valid in all countries.

Trying to contribute to a conversation usually involves at least trying to give something to back up your claims. You didn't seem to have any intent other than trolling and mudslinging with your post.

If you read what I posted you noticed that I did however you just like keeping your head in the sand chanting "They change is evil". Because frankly all you've done so for is tried to spread FUD of Steam across these boards.

 

[Drago Askani]

Actually, you cannot make the EULA binding on a customer if it is not available to view when you buy the game, rather than install it. Isn't contract law wonderful?

Actually the law on this is they have to have it visible at a public place. This includes websites almost all developers have the EULA on their sites thusly. I would think this is common knowledge by now as the practice and laws have been in effect for over 10 years.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, in the UK at least, they have started posting companies' EULAs in stores, as the agreement still needs to be available at the point of sale.

 

[treinacles]

Then I guess you quit playing computer games once DirectX started being required?

When did directX start requiring me to create an account before I can start using it?

 

[treinacles]

I absolutely hated Steam when it came out, it was just another layer of bs to wade through to play my games. But now it actually adds value so that it's worth more than a pirated version of the game.

Through Steam I can upload save-games so i always have them, I can see what my friends are playing and (if it's supported) auto-join their server... Most importantly to install a game I just click a few times and walk away for a few hours while it downloads - no physical media to store/find, patches are automatically installed.

Usually when you pirate a game you get the same exact quality as if you'd bought it (often it's even less hassle), but Steam is successful because it adds value.

Reading your post makes me want to give Steam another chance as I havn't used it since HL2...which was 3 computer builds ago. How does Steam work if you have different computers that you want different games installed on? Could I put HL2 on my desktop and at a later point put HL2 on my laptop?

I hope they still have my account info...actually, I hope that I can find my account info!?

 

[Genocidicbunny]

Steam works just fine. You cannot be logged into your account from multiple places at once, but you can have it and all your games installed in as many places as you want.

 

[DanX2007]

Reading your post makes me want to give Steam another chance as I havn't used it since HL2...which was 3 computer builds ago. How does Steam work if you have different computers that you want different games installed on? Could I put HL2 on my desktop and at a later point put HL2 on my laptop?

I hope they still have my account info...actually, I hope that I can find my account info!?

You can do this.

I have my steam account on both of my desktops with all my games installed on both. You can only be online on one computer at a time, but steam also has an OFFLINE mode, which some games support. (GTA4 for example being the exception, which requires you to be online)

Heck, I can even play some of my steam games over LAN with my wife, or we can even play the game separately at the same time with one account in offline mode.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

Well then. And these two things you said?

Since obviously you haven't been able to grasp my meaning with two detailed posts, I'll put it as simply as possible: Do you or do you not believe that all copies of Civ 5 will use Valve DRM, or just those sold in Steam? Your messages imply that you believe the first case to be true, while I've explained that I believe the latter. This is the simple question I've been trying to get an answer from you. To further clarify, I considered a game with Valve DRM that requires Steam to run to be Steam exclusive (yes, there are better terms for it, but since that's the phrase used here I'll stick to it for simplicity's sake), regardless of where else it may or may not be sold.

And I will once again say this: your reading comprehension sucks. Let me make it clear then.

For copies sold on Steam, and only copies sold on Steam, I believe Civ 5 will use Valve DRM. I say NOTHING about retail and physical copies. You obviously seem to not grasp the fact that a game can be sold through multiple channels.

Ever considered the fact that practically all software EULA's have legal status only in the United States, if even in there, and are in breach of local laws just about everywhere else? Also, explicitly said "such consumers", deliberately setting apart a certain group to which concerns such as mine apply. It seems it's not just me with a problem with reading comprehension in this thread. In all my posts I've made it very clear that all my opinions are personal and shared by a relatively small group of users.

Im pretty sure that EULA's for different regions are different. I do agree that they will likely not hold up in court, but to get to that point you have to go to court. You got several million USD to take a large company to court?

And now you're just trolling. My choice of OS is hardly relevant to my views on a software distribution system.

Indeed its irrelevant to your views on software distribution. It is relevant to your 'security mindedness' and your so called knowledge of how things work.

Also this discussion seems to have quite some time ago crossed the line of civil conversation. I suggest to either put an end to it or at the very least refraining from further insults, veiled and open. We obviously have differing views of Steam, and I have no problem with that. I'm glad if it works for many people, but there are reasons, some mentioned above, for which I personally choose not to use it.

And while I am content that you have a different view, you seem to lack a sensical reason for said views. That's my problem here, not the fact that you have a different view.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

Actually, you cannot make the EULA binding on a customer if it is not available to view when you buy the game, rather than install it. Isn't contract law wonderful?

Some games I have seen have a url on the box that leads to the EULA.

The rest of your beef should be towards retailers. I think pretty much any EULA states that if you do not agree, return immediately for refund.

Additionally, once you do click "I agree" its a manifestation of assent, and therefore still binding.

 

[Arakhor]

The point is that computer stores don't generally take games back that have been opened. I agree that once you click, it's pretty much irrelevant, but if you chose not to click for some reason, it is unlikely that the game store would refund your money, as stores are not legally required to refund a change in mind, which is what this would amount to.

As for not having the money to take someone to court, an EULA is basically institutionalised thuggery. It's "we know this is a corrupt, legally indefensible system that you have no option but to accept, but do you have the money to prove it?"

 

[Genocidicbunny]

I agree with you there.

This is one of the reasons I like steam. They have their own EULA you agree to when you install it, long before you pay for anything. Once you agree to that, most games are under that EULA. Those that are not have a warning on the game's store page stating so and I believe you have the ability to read it before purchase. Not 100% certain on this, and I don't want to go buy a game to confirm but I am pretty sure thats how it works.

 

[negZero]

The point is that computer stores don't generally take games back that have been opened. I agree that once you click, it's pretty much irrelevant, but if you chose not to click for some reason, it is unlikely that the game store would refund your money, as stores are not legally required to refund a change in mind, which is what this would amount to.

What stores are you going to? Around where I live every store has 1 week policy for store refund. Little tip the guy behind the counter usually has no power and just does what hes told, find a manger watch how fast things can change.

As for not having the money to take someone to court, an EULA is basically institutionalised thuggery. It's "we know this is a corrupt, legally indefensible system that you have no option but to accept, but do you have the money to prove it?"

Usually to break an EULA you would have to break the law in some form or another, so most cases end up with the law broken being used instead of the EULA. However the WoW glider case (MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard Entertainment, Inc and Vivendi Games, Inc.) did show that a EULA and TOU can be used successfully in court.

 

[Taalen]

And I will once again say this: your reading comprehension sucks. Let me make it clear then.

For copies sold on Steam, and only copies sold on Steam, I believe Civ 5 will use Valve DRM. I say NOTHING about retail and physical copies. You obviously seem to not grasp the fact that a game can be sold through multiple channels.

Well, thank you. Finally. It only took three detailed posts to finally get you to clarify your view on a very simple question. For all it's worth, both of your messages I quoted in my last poast about this imply without extra clarification, which you did not supply, that all copies would have that DRM (ask any English teacher, or anyone who understands how logic works). That was the sole meaning for my posts, and I'm glad I finally managed to get an explicit reply out of you. It seems there's not been any disagreement here at all, but somehow you managed to turn it into a mudslinging spamfest. Congratulations, I'm sure you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Let this be a lesson in why when one makes a statement, especially in the internet where the possibility of miscommunication is huge, one should also take some time to make sure you're actually saying what you meant to say.

I won't bother to say anything about the rest of your post, as all that is just the consequences of poor trolling.

 

[negZero]

Well, thank you. Finally. It only took three detailed posts to finally get you to clarify your view on a very simple question. For all it's worth, both of your messages I quoted in my last poast about this imply without extra clarification, which you did not supply, that all copies would have that DRM (ask any English teacher, or anyone who understands how logic works). That was the sole meaning for my posts, and I'm glad I finally managed to get an explicit reply out of you. It seems there's not been any disagreement here at all, but somehow you managed to turn it into a mudslinging spamfest. Congratulations, I'm sure you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Let this be a lesson in why when one makes a statement, especially in the internet where the possibility of miscommunication is huge, one should also take some time to make sure you're actually saying what you meant to say.

I won't bother to say anything about the rest of your post, as all that is just the consequences of poor trolling.

I know this won't be read by you but by the off chance it is, please review the posts you made in this thread. But you made claims of Steam deleting someone's whole game library which where never backed up. Misunderstood the comment of Valve having enough clout to make other developers change there DRM. Portrayed Steam as malware. Mistaken hypothetical as fact. Basically I suggest you go back to school and learn how English and logic work because by this thread you failed those subjects.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

Well, thank you. Finally. It only took three detailed posts to finally get you to clarify your view on a very simple question. For all it's worth, both of your messages I quoted in my last poast about this imply without extra clarification, which you did not supply, that all copies would have that DRM (ask any English teacher, or anyone who understands how logic works). That was the sole meaning for my posts, and I'm glad I finally managed to get an explicit reply out of you. It seems there's not been any disagreement here at all, but somehow you managed to turn it into a mudslinging spamfest. Congratulations, I'm sure you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Let this be a lesson in why when one makes a statement, especially in the internet where the possibility of miscommunication is huge, one should also take some time to make sure you're actually saying what you meant to say.

I won't bother to say anything about the rest of your post, as all that is just the consequences of poor trolling.

And still you hang onto it. My statement never implied exclusivity to the Steam platform. By using some of that logic you refer to, that would mean the game would be in multiple-channel distribution. Therefore, my statement kinda only applies to the copies distributed on Steam.

I am sorry though, I should have realized I need to explain it as to a 1st grader from the get-go.