D'tesh Events (Possible bug)

[black_imperator]

==> why not have their affinity work with another mana ? ex : "life" ? I don't know the lore but... why not have their "revived dead" condition be enhanced with life mana ? makes more sense than having death affinity : death serves to anihilate life : good use against someone, but maybe not so good a use to enhance the animated corpse ; especially if the corpse is not a "summon" but an actual "citizen" of your empire.

lorewise, body would do better than life for enhancing corpses .

 

[Valkrionn]

Wouldn't it be more accurate (lore-wise) to just give the first Council of Four unit a unic name and perhaps (since battle hardened isn't of much use to a unit that already on lvl. 6) the summoner promotion? Would go well with the Legion's theme of controlling the undead without unbalancing the game unnecessarily...

Your first arcane unit isn't necessarily the best after all, especially since you will often want to give it spells which are crucial in the early game but useless on a high level combat mage (think terraforming, enchantment, inspiration...)


About the new unitline: Have you considered reducing their experience gain somewhat (like 25%), otherwise they might just end up stealing the arcane line their position on the front line...


Looking forward to the new Legion.

Yes, but the first Council of Four is rather late game. And I personally have never used any of those spells as D'tesh... Especially now that Mages don't gain free xp, and you have to go out and earn it in combat. Every spell I take is combat-oriented. It also makes Battle-Hardened VERY powerful for it, as you're getting up to 50xp there for free.

I haven't considered nerfing their xp, but will if I have to. Atm, the Sentinel is 3/5 (including Death combat); the Binder (Adept, same tier) is 5. Sentinels are cheaper, and make better defenders, but you'll want the Arcane line to be the offensive core.

Can a Watcher take Shield of Ramne? If so its strength would be 1-2/3+2 = -1/5. Does this work? Will it just give 0/5? Just curious. Or does the +1 death damage just make it even out at 0/6 ? Will this unit be able to attack still? What would happen if it attacked a golem with effectively -1 strength?

They can, and the death damage neutralizes it at 0/6. Tested that specifically last night.

Leaves the unit unable to attack (like a worker with defensive promos), but makes him a VERY strong defender for that time period.

Valkrionn :
three aspects on the D'tesh :
(I never played them ; my comments are just "first-time reader" comments)

-possibility of "cheat" :
get your capitol city to X + 12 pop; then move the palace to another city that is maxed out at X pop ; grow it to X + 12pop. start again when you get a new building that ougth to allow a higher pop city.
well that is only unless removing the palace decrease the pop ; or if the current population of a D'tesh city is really fluctuant : +1-1 every odd turn : pop vs achievement (but I'm not sure I understood that concept)

Hmm. Actually had not considered that... May have to prevent the Spire from being built in other cities. Would still be relocated if you lose the capital, but otherwise immovable.

Either that, or decrease your population to the new cap... Suppose I should do that anyway, simple doCityTurn function. Check the popcap, compare to the size of the city, if too high, spawn slaves and decrease population.

2nd point :
-your council of Four get +1 shadow affinity : it seems a bit non-interesting. all other mechanisme of the D'tesh are based on Death affinity ergo all your mana nodes will e death nodes. the only shadow node you'll have is eventually Nox Nixtis. So IMO shadow affinitu may not be really useful.

It's just something they've always had, not something I specifically added. Think the goal was to encourage a variety of manas.

3rd point : It is a civ with a huge emphasis on Death mana... But death mana already has a big mechanisme pushing you to stack it. IMO, it may be a "bit" too much.
your D'tesh mages and "new disciple line (replaces melee line?)", with death affinity are virtual phalanxs moving around quite early in the game : what chance do the neighboring civs have ?
(4/6 +1death +death affinity is way stronger than 6 + metal weapons as it is : 5/7 + death affinity ; and you can easily have 4death nodes or much more by the time you get iron working.)

==> why not have their affinity work with another mana ? ex : "life" ? I don't know the lore but... why not have their "revived dead" condition be enhanced with life mana ? makes more sense than having death affinity : death serves to anihilate life : good use against someone, but maybe not so good a use to enhance the animated corpse ; especially if the corpse is not a "summon" but an actual "citizen" of your empire.

==> I really like the feel of having abilities for 2-3 manas at tier III + affinity for 1mana for the next tier IV unit : it forces you to chose : stack your manas to play on the affinity of the Tier IV unit or spread the mana to enhance the mana ability of the tierII tierIII units ?
Or even better Have affinity for different manas depending on the different unit branchs.
(Death affinity for all D'tesh units + DeathII and DeathIII summons seems a bit OP and simplisitic)
ex :
Death's Head
Disciple Unitcombat
4/6 , +1 Death Combat, +1 Death ability + 1body ability + 1shadow ability ==> max : 8/10 (still strong)
Hand of D'tesh
10/12 , +2 Death Combat, +1 Death Affinity (and not +2 as 10/12 +2/death node is...OP)

*my 0.2 ... sorry if there are much rambling

I'm thinking about adding code allowing me to give single point strength boosts when you have the appropriate mana, so something like your 'ability'. If I do, it will be used for the Death's Head... Not too worried about the Hand of D'tesh being strong, it's limited.

Life would be vastly inappropriate. Death mana (as used in the game) is not True Death magic. It is UnDeath. Necromancy. As a result... There is no more appropriate mana for the D'tesh. There also aren't really any 'citizens'; All of them are under the control of D'tesh, some just have more freedom than others.

If I add the aforementioned mechanic, I'd spread it around a bit. Death, Shadow, and Entropy.

lorewise, body would do better than life for enhancing corpses .

Yes it would be... But that's the Scion's thing.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

nice ideas

 

[Cyrusfan]

Valk, it seems to me that as written, this defensive line would be superior to the arcane line. Specifically, the defenders don't need experience to be upgraded (which is fairly necessary) and apparently can be directly built with the appropriate tech. Once I have Necromancy and Sorcery (I'd need a couple Chosen to manipulate mana nodes), I could just crank out Death's Heads (the Death Affinity is really what makes either unit go).

And if I can get the training from the Pagan Temple variant, they're much better. If they have access to the generic disciple upgrades...Katie bar the door! Death affinity + Drill promos? Yikes!

 

[Valkrionn]

Valk, it seems to me that as written, this defensive line would be superior to the arcane line. Specifically, the defenders don't need experience to be upgraded (which is fairly necessary) and apparently can be directly built with the appropriate tech. Once I have Necromancy and Sorcery (I'd need a couple Chosen to manipulate mana nodes), I could just crank out Death's Heads (the Death Affinity is really what makes either unit go).

And if I can get the training from the Pagan Temple variant, they're much better. If they have access to the generic disciple upgrades...Katie bar the door! Death affinity + Drill promos? Yikes!

The Death Affinity I'm going to remove. Decided it's too strong.

 

[Iskar Jarak]

will Chosen be able to be built directly or will they still need to be upgraded from a lvl 4 binder? I ask because with no free xp it may be difficult to enough chosen

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm considering allowing Chosen to be built directly. Doing that would mean that any binder can upgrade, though, so I'm not sure on it.

 

[Divvu]

Maybe allow them to be upgraded at 3rd level instead of the canonical 4th?
With Apprenticeship/Guild , Titan, Conquest + Command Post that would mean they are almost upgradeable from the get go ( 8/10 xp IIRC).

 

[Calavente]

Valkrionn :
-ability exists already in WildMana (I think at least for the amurite champion)

-I know the FFH lore,not the D'tesh lore. : meaning I know the meaning of death mana.
-I know death is in fact "undeath"
but skellies, spectres, phantoms (well upgrades of spectres : deathIII) +"zombies" and sheaim axemens + lich : save lich, those units are mindless creatures.

I thought that the D'tesh would have undead "citizen", less "souless", and more "revived" than classical undead. That's why I searched another potential mana that could be helpful.
Maybe I should have proposed mind or spirit instead of life... to show those "revived" units have a brain.
But that was not knowing the lore of D'tesh.
It seems, reading your comment, that D'tesh cities are populated only with skelleton-grade "citizen-slave" and have only undead units with skelleton grade soul and brain. so my understanding was wrong...
so only death, body, shadow and entropy seems effectively appropriate.
sorry :/

but : full death mana nodes is already almost a nobrainer due to deathII and deathIII spells.
having another civ focused on death nodes is sad; Incentives for spreading the mana would be nice.

last : what I meant with the shadow affinity of council of four was that it won't spread the mana nodes.
If it was : +1affinity death +2affinity shadow, it would induce a choice between "upgrade quickly the council of four with +2shadow mana" or "enhance the normal mage unit + Death's Head + Hand of D'tesh and with death affinity +council, but only with +1affinity..."
that would conduce to have too strong councils but it would be in the direction of "NOT DEATH MANA ONLY".

regards.

 

[Valkrionn]

Maybe allow them to be upgraded at 3rd level instead of the canonical 4th?
With Apprenticeship/Guild , Titan, Conquest + Command Post that would mean they are almost upgradeable from the get go ( 8/10 xp IIRC).

I'm considering doing just that, actually.

Right now they upgrade at higher levels than the norm, as they already had higher strength but still gained xp passively. Now that they no longer gain it passively, there's no reason for the higher level upgrade... And potentially a reason for a LOWER level upgrade.

Valkrionn :
-ability exists already in WildMana (I think at least for the amurite champion)

-I know the FFH lore,not the D'tesh lore. : meaning I know the meaning of death mana.
-I know death is in fact "undeath"
but skellies, spectres, phantoms (well upgrades of spectres : deathIII) +"zombies" and sheaim axemens + lich : save lich, those units are mindless creatures.

Well, AFAIK Wraiths (death3) are not mindless. Other than that though, all Death units are pretty much mindless and controlled by their summoner.

I thought that the D'tesh would have undead "citizen", less "souless", and more "revived" than classical undead. That's why I searched another potential mana that could be helpful.
Maybe I should have proposed mind or spirit instead of life... to show those "revived" units have a brain.
But that was not knowing the lore of D'tesh.
It seems, reading your comment, that D'tesh cities are populated only with skelleton-grade "citizen-slave" and have only undead units with skelleton grade soul and brain. so my understanding was wrong...
so only death, body, shadow and entropy seems effectively appropriate.
sorry :/

Nope, they're all slaves. Actually, the entire reason Thanatos exists as a leader is because D'tesh is in league with Laroth; Laroth gets the souls for his army in Arawn's realm, and D'tesh gets the bodies, power in Erebus, and Thanatos and the Dullahans as servants.

So aside from the arcane units, they're all basically mindless. And even the arcane units are under D'tesh's control, he just gives them a slight ability to make decisions... He monitors them, rather than outright controls them.

but : full death mana nodes is already almost a nobrainer due to deathII and deathIII spells.
having another civ focused on death nodes is sad; Incentives for spreading the mana would be nice.

I agree, actually, and once the partial affinity system is in I will be making use of that extensively for the D'tesh. As it is, I may do something like with the Mechanos... Some ideas are popping into my head atm. Will flesh them out and then decide if I should implement them.

last : what I meant with the shadow affinity of council of four was that it won't spread the mana nodes.
If it was : +1affinity death +2affinity shadow, it would induce a choice between "upgrade quickly the council of four with +2shadow mana" or "enhance the normal mage unit + Death's Head + Hand of D'tesh and with death affinity +council, but only with +1affinity..."
that would conduce to have too strong councils but it would be in the direction of "NOT DEATH MANA ONLY".

regards.

Again, I agree. Though my barely formed idea may be better balanced... Less massive strength potential.

 

[Valkrionn]

Okay, making a repost from our team forum. Have discussed it a bit there (more in #Erebus than the forum, but still. ), and we've decided it's a good mechanic. So expect it to show up next version... Should take like an hour to code, if that. Not an intensive mechanic for us, as we can clone the Mechanos code.

Alright. A pure death affinity is a bit too strong; Death Mana is too useful. However, affinity is a big part of the D'tesh... The majority of their units already have it, to some degree or another. The entire Melee/Mounted lines, higher level mages, higher level polearms.

So, here's a proposal that should play better... This will apply to all units of at least Tier 2. So no Warriors, Watchers, or Scouts... But everything else.


D'teshi Affinity

• Functionally, coding will be the same as with the Mechanos. A visible trigger promo with a pyperturn function, and then a stackable promo for each effect. Minimal amount of python, low weight, low cost. And easy to do.
• Gameplay-wise, it would enable us to encourage gaining multiple manas, without having excessively strong units.
• Death Mana
  • +X% strength
  • Likely to be around 5-10%... Using a percentage so that the effect is not disproportionately strong on low-tier units.
  • Side-effect - % boosts cannot be typed. Meaning it will be standard strength, rather than Death... No more extreme weakness to the Scions or certain other civs.
• Shadow Mana
  • +1 First Strike Chance
  • Every 5 grants one standard First Strike
• Entropy Mana
  • Chance after combat to temporarily create Wastelands
    • Code-wise, this would not be a stackable promotion in this case. Would be a single promo, with a postCombat python call... Python would check the number of Entropy, and run a rand by (TotalEntropy * 5) to see if it becomes Wasteland.
    • Effect lasts 10 turns. May be adjusted after testing, but 10 sounds about right.
• Infused Ash
  • +1% chance to generate a Slave.
  • Low effect, but if doing it anyway I'd like to have Ash be useful beyond just a commerce boost for the city.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Does "everything else" include the Arcane line (the context isn't clear)? Do Combat promos get added or multiplied with this version of affinity?

I like the entropy effect as a matter of flavor, but I'm not sure the possibility of getting to apply the Wasteland attack bonus D'Tesh units get to a city siege is quite enough to justify using the man nodes on it.

 

[Valkrionn]

Does "everything else" include the Arcane line (the context isn't clear)? Do Combat promos get added or multiplied with this version of affinity?

I like the entropy effect as a matter of flavor, but I'm not sure the possibility of getting to apply the Wasteland attack bonus D'Tesh units get to a city siege is quite enough to justify using the man nodes on it.

Everything of Tier2 on up. IIRC, the only Tier1 units are the Warrior, Scout, Watcher, and possibly skellies. So yes, Arcane line is affected.

Combat promos would be additive with it; All % effects are additive, so 5 +30% (Death) + 20% (Combat1) ends up being 7.5, rather than 7.8.

You're missing the biggest part of the Wasteland effect, actually. Wasteland has absolutely no yield for anyone but the D'tesh... So if, say, you underestimate the number of troops you need to take a city, and the enemy can build more while you bring up reinforcements, throw a few units at them in the hopes the wasteland effect fires. The city has now lost the yield for that tile. If you can do this in enough tiles, you have effectively neutered the city... Leaving it far more susceptible to your attacks, as they cannot build reinforcements.

 

[Cyrusfan]

That's a pretty scary nerfing of Chosen, then, but if it's what you need to do to balance them with the rest of the game, I guess that's what you need to do.

Are you going to be adjusting all units with affinities (ie their summons) like this? Because it seems like I'm going to have to use the summons more, which is a bummer because they don't seem to generate slaves. Or didn't the last time I used the with the worldspell going. Or is there any chance that ash effect might get applied to summons?

I'm not sure what you mean about the wastelands. The wastelands would appear in the tile attacked, right? So the only way I disrupt the tiles around the city is if I attack units outside the city. Which probably didn't come from that city if it's threatened, but from others, which makes my problem reinforcements from other cities, not those built in my current target. And wasteland has no tile yield, but wouldn't improvements/reources still have value? And even if they didn't. I can achieve the same effect by parking some of my units (or even a summons, since they stick around until my next turn) on a given tile.

Edit-By "their summons" I mean that any unit they might summon, so basically a revamp of all summoned units.

 

[Valkrionn]

That's a pretty scary nerfing of Chosen, then, but if it's what you need to do to balance them with the rest of the game, I guess that's what you need to do.

Are you going to be adjusting all units with affinities (ie their summons) like this? Because it seems like I'm going to have to use the summons more, which is a bummer because they don't seem to generate slaves. Or didn't the last time I used the with the worldspell going. Or is there any chance that ash effect might get applied to summons?

I'm not sure what you mean about the wastelands. The wastelands would appear in the tile attacked, right? So the only way I disrupt the tiles around the city is if I attack units outside the city. Which probably didn't come from that city if it's threatened, but from others, which makes my problem reinforcements from other cities, not those built in my current target. And wasteland has no tile yield, but wouldn't improvements/reources still have value? And even if they didn't. I can achieve the same effect by parking some of my units (or even a summons, since they stick around until my next turn) on a given tile.

Edit-By "their summons" I mean that any unit they might summon, so basically a revamp of all summoned units.

I'm going to be nerfing the level required to upgrade for Arcane units. At the very least, will be default. Will likely be a level or two lower than that, but that depends on balance feedback from testers.

And yes, I think this needs be done to accomplish three things:

1. Prevent the hyperbolic power curve as you expand; Multiple manas are still very useful, but you eliminate the potential for strength 12 warriors.
2. Eliminate their 'squishiness' vs certain death-immune civs; They will still be weaker vs them, but not to the incredible extent they currently are.
3. Encourage attaining multiple manas, without reliance on multiple affinities... Which becomes overpowered, and fast.

I think it meets all three, and does so fairly well.

Summons should be producing slaves. While other unitlines have autoacquire promos granting a slave capture effect, the Arcane line, being UU's, has that effect built in. Instead, they gain a promotion which passes Fell Spirits on to their summons, granting a 20% capture chance. If this isn't working currently I will fix, but I believe it was the last time I checked.

Wastelands would appear in the tile attacked, yes. Really, think of it as something analogous to the Hippus... Both would allow you to dash in, damage the economy, and dash back out. Then come back later on, when you are stronger and they are weaker. Just different methods of accomplishing it... And less permanent, in the case of the D'tesh.

 

[Divvu]

Well I'm glad you were already pondering my idea . I also love the affinity system you described...
Any chance to see it expanded to other civs/units?

 

[Valkrionn]

Well I'm glad you were already pondering my idea . I also love the affinity system you described...
Any chance to see it expanded to other civs/units?

Possible, but not real likely. Not until it's done in the DLL.

 

[Divvu]

Any chance to see it expanded to other civs/units?

My bad, I meant "In the Long run?"


I ask this because at present affinity is quite abusable, sure you can counter it with cavalry and pillaging, but unless the Ai manages to understand that (unlikely) this is true only in Multiplayer...

 

[Valkrionn]

My bad, I meant "In the Long run?"


I ask this because at present affinity is quite abusable, sure you can counter it with cavalry and pillaging, but unless the Ai manages to understand that (unlikely) this is true only in Multiplayer...

In that case, yes. I plan to expand affinity quite a bit, code-wise... Allow it to affect any unitstat, in decimal amounts, in percentages, etc. Will be done first and foremost for the Guilds, as a way to encourage hoarding resources without relying on ridiculous commerce effects.

 

[Valkrionn]

Okay, making a repost from our team forum. Have discussed it a bit there (more in #Erebus than the forum, but still. ), and we've decided it's a good mechanic. So expect it to show up next version... Should take like an hour to code, if that. Not an intensive mechanic for us, as we can clone the Mechanos code.

Just wanted to say: This is in, and working.

Will make a full post tomorrow, describing the exact setup.