Dudes (and dudettes), don't forget the Ideas & Suggestions sub-forum !

[Naokaukodem]

As always I see plenty suggestions, some good, flourish when a new game is announced. But it's too late for the most parts ! I wish people use more the aforementioned forum before it's too late !

I know people might say "but we weren't sure about a new entry in the series", but come on, Civ will live forever and you know it ! Even if a thermonuclear missile hit Firaxis' offices and kill every dev, Sid Meier included, I'm sure Civ will survive. And if we are back to the stone age, we would still play Civ45 on a potato. (priced 3 of them)

Now most of your ideas are good for Civ8, stop the flood and the endless and useless debates ! Or go there : https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ-ideas-suggestions.119/ (still in the Civ6 section FYI, until 2025 most probably)

Well I don't know if this kind of post is tolerated, but I will post it anyway.

/rant.

 

[pokiehl]

Why would devs care about our thoughts for Civ 8 when we haven’t even seen an ounce of gameplay from Civ 7? I think you're getting way ahead of yourself here.

Influencing the devs isn't a realistic goal of the exchange of ideas here anyway. Most of us have absolutely no idea how to develop a game or what goes into a game, much less a great game that has to appeal to millions of people. I have my own ideas about what I think I'd like, but when I mod my ideas in and experience them, I often change my mind. I have no confidence that I or any other lay person has genuinely good, insightful ideas for a Civ game. The gameplay ideas presented here are so various and contradictory, with very little ever gained in the way of actual consensus, that I have no idea how they'd even begin to parse them. I

It's basically this meme:



Anyway, the devs have their own focus group and other internal testers to get feedback from. They don't need to prowl the forums. Generally "ideas" are the last thing that any game developers need; what's a lot more important is the ability to execute and put together a cohesive vision. Poster #7734734 on Civfanatics saying "I want better diplomacy" or going into a single malt diatribe on why XYZ in the game needs to be fleshed out in tedious detail is probably not that helpful.

Maybe social media posts can give them the beginning of an idea of what new faction would be popular to include, but even then, sample sizes on forums are so limited and biased they probably give more credence to those fan polls they've been putting out lately.

I think sharing ideas here is more for fun and seeing different perspectives.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Why would devs care about our thoughts for Civ 8 when we haven’t even seen an ounce of gameplay from Civ 7? I think you're getting way ahead of yourself here.

Seems you quite vastly misunderstood me. It appears that quite of the ideas debated here are too late to go backwards devs decisions on Civ7, precisely. So, and this is a general observation, we better be "hyped" a tiny little bit more before one sequel is about to hit the stores, and not just before. This works for Civ7, but since it's too late this would work for Civ8... that's just logic here. I often complained to the moderators because one of my thread goes to the I&S subforum, because it's quite a punishment IMHO, because there is, at times, far less frequentation in this forum than the General Discussion one. I even happened to advertise some ideas in the GD, but got mistreated by the mods and called an "attention whore" by them. (or so it was the sense of their sentences)

And now that it's too late (again, for the most part), I see debates all over the place with ideas fusing everywhere ; I just wish those debates to be more permanent and useful, even if yes, there is too many ideas to form a coherent scheme, but hey, it's fun and it allows to share different perspectives...

And I don't think there's a better way to tell developpers what we want as customers. Because if you 100% think that the devs do not listen, it's like shouting to the empty sky without *any* consequence. Air circulation. And I can't believe everyone here do not have a spark of seriousness while giving their ideas, so...

As to any idea being used by devs, I already saw some, from me or others, bad or good.

We can go further : from my experience, no Civ game is perfect, and it might be so until the end of times. So, in all their flaws, yes, devs can take some ideas here and there, with no biggies (GDRs, from a very funny post on this very forum, in the vein of your meme), whether the game is destined to "millions of people" or not. Sure, there is debate to know what is Civ and what isn't, for pure commercial aspects, but I hardly saw a good definition yet. (and don't tell me about uniques : Civ1 and Civ2 except names didn't have any to begin with - and it was enough to roleplay) As to leaderheads, sure they might be a part of what everybody wants, but objectively it's far from being an important part of the game. Imagine the game is far more polished to be just something more appealing than a meme : if Sid says no, then it's no, and a lot more few people than you'd expect would complain. (unless Sid dies, or the game finding itself in the hand of other developers that would be easy to accuse, the case being : fame is fragile y'know, but fame is strong too - whatever the devs do "Civilization" might sell - what I want to say here is that popularity is often totally disconnected from the product quality)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Why would devs care about our thoughts for Civ 8 when we haven’t even seen an ounce of gameplay from Civ 7? I think you're getting way ahead of yourself here.

Influencing the devs isn't a realistic goal of the exchange of ideas here anyway. Most of us have absolutely no idea how to develop a game or what goes into a game, much less a great game that has to appeal to millions of people. I have my own ideas about what I think I'd like, but when I mod my ideas in and experience them, I often change my mind. I have no confidence that I or any other lay person has genuinely good, insightful ideas for a Civ game. The gameplay ideas presented here are so various and contradictory, with very little ever gained in the way of actual consensus, that I have no idea how they'd even begin to parse them. I

It's basically this meme:



Anyway, the devs have their own focus group and other internal testers to get feedback from. They don't need to prowl the forums. Generally "ideas" are the last thing that any game developers need; what's a lot more important is the ability to execute and put together a cohesive vision. Poster #7734734 on Civfanatics saying "I want better diplomacy" or going into a single malt diatribe on why XYZ in the game needs to be fleshed out in tedious detail is probably not that helpful.

Maybe social media posts can give them the beginning of an idea of what new faction would be popular to include, but even then, sample sizes on forums are so limited and biased they probably give more credence to those fan polls they've been putting out lately.

I think sharing ideas here is more for fun and seeing different perspectives.

While you may be largely correct, that hasn't been my personal experience.

Three times in the past several I have been asked specifically and personally to comment on or contribute to the development of a new game, and in every case it was because they had read some post or other of mine here or elsewhere. Mind you, that's three 'responses' to 4000+ posts, so I'm not saying any of that is 'normal' for game development, but there is a certain (tiny) amount of soliciting 'outside comment' even in current game design.

 

[pokiehl]

While you may be largely correct, that hasn't been my personal experience.

Three times in the past several I have been asked specifically and personally to comment on or contribute to the development of a new game, and in every case it was because they had read some post or other of mine here or elsewhere. Mind you, that's three 'responses' to 4000+ posts, so I'm not saying any of that is 'normal' for game development, but there is a certain (tiny) amount of soliciting 'outside comment' even in current game design.

Ara, Humankind, and I think Old World have all reached out to a number of people here. I’m sure other competitors like Millenia have too. It’s not a surprise—they’re trying to appeal to Civ fans so they’re reaching out to active posters on this forum who have a lot of opinions. I think it’s a mistake overall for a number of reasons, but it’s not a surprise.

They’re also made by much smaller and less formal companies than Firaxis.

That’s not really what I was referring to though, and they’re generally not asking people to generate ideas for them.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Anyway all this is off topic, I just wish people participate more to the I&S forum, whether it is to be heard by developpers or just for fun. (and yes devs listen to us, I'm 100% certain - not to mean that "us" is every idea but that's quite obvious otherwise the game would be all and its contrary - they have a straight line of vision, and *if* an idea fits to it and seems just seducing enough, they will take it - like for example embarkable units - not to mean that they didn't have the idea themselves alone)

For now if they don't go with my idea in my signature, which I have no clue how playable it would be, then I hope that we can have cities very close, even if all don't have the same features, like in this other game but even more dense. I don't put my hopes up too much, as a vast city with some wonders in it is more selling probably. (and they probably still dislike anything approaching ICS)

 

[pokiehl]

I doubt most game companies are taking specific ideas from internet posts.

Giving detailed suggestions to game developers may accomplish the complete opposite effect: they’ll try to move far away from your idea to avoid being accused of stealing it. Thus, specific suggestion in fact hurt your chances of seeing what you want get into the game.

Check out this recent post by Harada, the game director for Tekken (one of the highest selling fighting game franchises), where he says this explicitly:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1810549738128974304

In this post, he tells fans to stop giving them ideas. Other replies have chimed in; one said he emailed Ubisoft ideas and they responded to him saying they explicitly try to avoid user ideas for that very reason.

 

[InsidiousMage]

In this post, he tells fans to stop giving them ideas. Other replies have chimed in; one said he emailed Ubisoft ideas and they responded to him saying they explicitly try to avoid user ideas for that very reason.

Yeah, Wizards of the Coast has said the same thing about Magic The Gathering. They absolutely refuse to look at player ideas because might accidentally reuse an idea they forgot they got from a player suggestion and get sued.

I think suggestions and stuff can help devs figure out what players want in very general sense, like what civs and leaders people want to see, but putting actual, thought out game mechanics in the forum is almost certainly useless unless you specifically want to discuss them with other players.

 

[pokiehl]

Yeah, Wizards of the Coast has said the same thing about Magic The Gathering. They absolutely refuse to look at player ideas because might accidentally reuse an idea they forgot they got from a player suggestion and get sued.

I think suggestions and stuff can help devs figure out what players want in very general sense, like what civs and leaders people want to see, but putting actual, thought out game mechanics in the forum is almost certainly useless unless you specifically want to discuss them with other players.

Yes, there's definitely a distinction between getting IDEAS from fans as opposed to OPINIONS, and Harada says that as well later in his post.

It's one thing to say, XYZ needs to be buffed, or ABC is unbalanced, or other stuff like that. I think that kind of feedback can be useful, and developers probably take notice of it if it comes up enough. In fact, they can solicit our OPINIONS directly, like from the surveys they put out a while ago. Like you said, general feedback might be useful.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think suggestions and stuff can help devs figure out what players want in very general sense, like what civs and leaders people want to see, but putting actual, thought out game mechanics in the forum is almost certainly useless unless you specifically want to discuss them with other players.

I do think Civ is at least different in that regard, considering the characters and factions aren't fictional but historical, so it be hard to steal ideas. In fact, I'm pretty sure the reason we got Tamar/Georgia and Lady Six Sky is from the fans/forum.

 

[pokiehl]

In fact, I'm pretty sure the reason we got Tamar/Georgia and Lady Six Sky is from the fans/forum.

I think that’s debatable, but we’re not saying “Please include ABC” is verboten. That even happens with fighting games too. In fact, fighting games have polls for this sort of thing sometimes. It’s logical for companies to at least pay peripheral attention to those general requests because it probably correlates to sales.

Saying you want a faction or general mechanic included is one thing. Designing that faction or mechanic in specific detail is another thing.

 

[InsidiousMage]

I do think Civ is at least different in that regard, considering the characters and factions aren't fictional but historical, so it be hard to steal ideas. In fact, I'm pretty sure the reason we got Tamar/Georgia and Lady Six Sky is from the fans/forum.

Its one thing to be like "I want a religious Rome lead by Theodosius" and another be "I want a religious Rome that gets production from Holy Site adjacency and units to get combat bonuses for each building in a Holy Site in the city they were produced in and to have an unique Theodosian Wall." The first is fine, the second is probably not.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Well you must know better than me then. BTW, in every serious idea I emitted, I always explicitly said that I was renouncing on my rights about it or that it could be used freely, I know what are "unsollicited ideas". That may not be enough , but in the flow of video game industry news I see every day, I never saw such case where a company has troubles with an idea emitter, except maybe with modding stuff. (anyway companies prefer to "buy" the mods or hire the modders, so even here...)

 

[GIO888]

I always thought the Modding community fills that gap between ideas and recommendations......

 

[InsidiousMage]

I always explicitly said that I was renouncing on my rights about it or that it could be used freely, I know what are "unsollicited ideas".

That's not legally binding though so it doesn't matter that you say you renounce your rights.

That may not be enough , but in the flow of video game industry news I see every day, I never saw such case where a company has troubles with an idea emitter, except maybe with modding stuff.

Just because there hasn't been a suit about this kind of stuff doesn't mean there can't be one in the future and I doubt any company is interested in taking that risk, even if the chance of it happening is almost zero.

 

[Naokaukodem]

That's not legally binding though so it doesn't matter that you say you renounce your rights.

Is it though ? As long as words have a sense, it should be, unless it is dismissed by even a lot more words that have yet less sense.

Just because there hasn't been a suit about this kind of stuff doesn't mean there can't be one in the future and I doubt any company is interested in taking that risk, even if the chance of it happening is almost zero.

Well it at least prooves that it's a little bit overwhelmed here or there. Even the Tekken guy (mentioned earlier) speaks about some percentage of people willing to sue, like what, 0,1%, 0,001% ? Put aside people who have truly good ideas to emit to the point they are truly used, it must make indeed a chance to happen at almost 0. They still can hire those people who emit so groundbreaking ideas, but Firaxis didn't hire me because i don't know how to program. (which is wrong, I programmed the Mastermind on a calculator in Basic. It's the modern languages that make no sense to me, overrefering constantly other parts who knows where they truly are programmed. Such redundancy is quickly disgusting)

 

[InsidiousMage]

Is it though ? As long as words have a sense, it should be, unless it is dismissed by even a lot more words that have yet less sense.

First thing, your legal name or proof of identity isn't attached to your posts and nothing can be legally binding without your legal name attached to it. Second, I'm pretty sure intellectual property generally isn't covered under common law*, no lawyer worth the cost isn't going accept your state without getting it signed, witnessed, and notarized. "Because I say so" is never going to be considered legally sound.

They still can hire those people who emit so groundbreaking ideas

Its never going to be worth the hassle to hire to someone who has a good idea or two. I don't it would be worth it to buy the rights for ideas from players either.

*Which is what your statement would probably be covered under.

 

[pokiehl]

Its never going to be worth the hassle to hire to someone who has a good idea or two. I don't it would be worth it to buy the rights for ideas from players either.

*Which is what your statement would probably be covered

Yeah, everyone is an “ideas guy.” What you really need to work in videogames are skills: technical programming knowledge of relevant languages, project management, data analysis, artistic aptitude (modeling, drawing, texturing, animation, etc.), music composition, design ability, debugging, 3D math…and so on and so on.

 

[Naokaukodem]

First thing, your legal name or proof of identity isn't attached to your posts and nothing can be legally binding without your legal name attached to it. Second, I'm pretty sure intellectual property generally isn't covered under common law*, no lawyer worth the cost isn't going accept your state without getting it signed, witnessed, and notarized. "Because I say so" is never going to be considered legally sound.

So where is the problem, then ?

Yeah, everyone is an “ideas guy.”

No, not everyone. They took Giant Death Robots from this forum, I don't remember the pseudo but it wasn't "everyone". Some ideas are stronger than skills, definitely.

 

[Leyrann]

Yeah, everyone is an “ideas guy.” What you really need to work in videogames are skills: technical programming knowledge of relevant languages, project management, data analysis, artistic aptitude (modeling, drawing, texturing, animation, etc.), music composition, design ability, debugging, 3D math…and so on and so on.

Imma be honest, having seen some people's ideas, there's definitely different tiers of 'idea guys'.