Dune scenario?

A weird, whacky, and totally unconventional thought:

Start out with no water. Let global warming change the desert into coast. Make pollution be your friend! Let irrigation give high bonuses so the risks from tile pollution are worth the benefits from global warming. It'd be an interesting change in strategy. A deviation might be to have plains and desert equivalent to the deserts of Dune, and letting plains convert to grass while desert converts to coast (in this case, sand worms could travel on plains and desert, but not grass). Technology to bring water to Dune's surface would then be represented by pollution producing buildings. Totally whacky, eh? Nuclear weapons (crashing comets?) suddenly become really attractive...

Another, separate thought is to make spice/melange only appear in the desert, but give it a very high rate of dissappearance, and set it so that cities can't be built on desert. This would serve several purposes. First, it would make mining spice very important to the game. The mining would be very competitive, as the only way to get it (unless you were really lucky) would be to create colonies and build the roads to get there. The colony graphic could be replaced with a harvester graphic, and the worker animation with a harvester animation as well. But between worms running amok and the other factions, these spice mining operations would be very hazardous. And the concept of spice blooms and limited melange deposits would become a major game point. Besides, it would give all those workers something to do! Spice would technically be a luxury, but would also be required for advanced buildings to help represent the benefits of interstellar trade and the extreme importance of melange to the Dune universe. Perhaps also required for advanced units.

I admit to having only read the first book and immensely enjoy Dune 2 and 2000, so if I am missing something from the later books, bear that in mind. I am assuming worms as barbarians with very high stats, making them difficult to kill. (I did manage to kill a worm in Dune 2000!)
 
DANGERBOY said:
A weird, whacky, and totally unconventional thought:

Start out with no water. Let global warming change the desert into coast. Make pollution be your friend! Let irrigation give high bonuses so the risks from tile pollution are worth the benefits from global warming. It'd be an interesting change in strategy. A deviation might be to have plains and desert equivalent to the deserts of Dune, and letting plains convert to grass while desert converts to coast (in this case, sand worms could travel on plains and desert, but not grass). Technology to bring water to Dune's surface would then be represented by pollution producing buildings. Totally whacky, eh? Nuclear weapons (crashing comets?) suddenly become really attractive...

Another, separate thought is to make spice/melange only appear in the desert, but give it a very high rate of dissappearance, and set it so that cities can't be built on desert. This would serve several purposes. First, it would make mining spice very important to the game. The mining would be very competitive, as the only way to get it (unless you were really lucky) would be to create colonies and build the roads to get there. The colony graphic could be replaced with a harvester graphic, and the worker animation with a harvester animation as well. But between worms running amok and the other factions, these spice mining operations would be very hazardous. And the concept of spice blooms and limited melange deposits would become a major game point. Besides, it would give all those workers something to do! Spice would technically be a luxury, but would also be required for advanced buildings to help represent the benefits of interstellar trade and the extreme importance of melange to the Dune universe. Perhaps also required for advanced units.

I admit to having only read the first book and immensely enjoy Dune 2 and 2000, so if I am missing something from the later books, bear that in mind. I am assuming worms as barbarians with very high stats, making them difficult to kill. (I did manage to kill a worm in Dune 2000!)
Click to expand...

This is great idea, really! Except the rareness of the spice (it wasn't that rare after all) the ideas of having spice in desert and not being able to build on sand are great! Being totally Civ3-mod illiterate I had no idea you could do that, although the original thought was to be able to build only on rock-solid surface. We can also introduce later in the game the ability to change desert to coast (at very high cost) thus allowing further expansion into the desert.

Thanks for very valuable input.
 
As I was playing around with various settings in Civ editor I think of using the Water as another strategic resource. It should not be too rare, but it'll exist only on plains (I used only 2 terrain types - desert and plains) and obtaining the resource should allow building the infantry units, which makes sense :) This way we can have more then one resource to fight over (and sticking close to the book) plus have the ability to render the necessity of this resource obsolete with discovering some "Water Preservation" or "Water Conservation" techniques.
 
Actually, the melange doesn't need to be rare for my suggestion to work. It just needs to move around quickly. The more rare it is, the more likely the factions are to fight over known deposits, but the movement plus marauding sandworms are what really appeal to me. The borders then show how far out wormsign detection and emergency retrieval flights can run. Anything beyond the borders requires an at-risk mining operation.

Unfortunately, the only way to change terrain types is through global warming. You can control what a terrain turns into in the editor, but there are no terrafom actions available to workers except to chop jungle, forests, and marshes, and to plant forests. It may be possible to use forests, etc. as an overlay of sand with the "irrigated" land underneath, but the logistics of unit movement become really nasty at that point (how to keep sandworms in the "forest-dunes" while preventing settlers from entering them). Plus placing a colony clears forest,etc. so that is a mess too. But yes, there is an option for every terrain type as to whether cities can be built, if it is impassable to wheeled units, and what terrain improvements can be built.
 
Water resource is a great idea. Representing springs and underground lakes, I presume? Remember, you can have buildings require a resource within city limits, so that would make the resource location valuable as well.
 
Great idea, thanks. I actually forgot about this requirement :)

Now the picture is getting clearer :) The only large piece that's still missing is the tech tree.
 
The Tech tree would be pretty small, there are almost no advances in technology during Dune. Unless of course you plan to start from the first colonization of Dune, which would make techs like stillsuits, windtraps, desert outfitting, desert navigation and such plausible.

As for weapons, artillery is indeed used sometimes in Dune, but usually just where las-guns (the main weapons, basically high-end lasers) can't be. There's an interesting and so far overlooked aspect to the weapons, when a las-gun hits a sheild it causes a nuclear fusion reaction to occur. For those who are not scientifically inclined, that means a nuke basically goes off. While a deliberate nuclear weapon is banned in Dune, this sort of explosion is not considered a breaching of that law, mostly since it always wipes out both sides (attacker and defender) and is mostly accidental.

I suggest that units have laser-based weapons, which should have a high attack rating but units with these weapons would also have sheilds, so they would have an equal attack rating. So laser+sheild units attacking other laser+sheild units would have equal chances of destroying eachother for reasons mentioned in the previous paragraph. The neat thing here is the units without sheilds and lasers could have radically different attack and defense ratings, mixing things up a bit. Then there's the sandworms which should be made immensely powerful, even (if not especially) against laser+sheild units (more specifically sheild units) since sheilds drive worms into a feeding frenzy.

My final ideas are to only have very limited groud vehicles and instead just have a series of different ornithopters to replace that role. In fact the only ground vehicles should be artillery (rocket or projectile), and they should outmatch non-sheild units but not stand a chance against sheilded ones. Nukes should be very expensive, but otherwise left alone since using them even in the normal game makes everyone hate you pretty quickly.

Oh and by the way zealus, that's an excellent idea about the sorta reverse-global warming role, especially since that's exactly what the Fremen are trying to do throughout the series. It reminds me of the Mars series, but I'm not sure which author copied which.
 
Well, it was the only way I could think of to change land to sea. I like trying to think of ways to pervert the system to make bad things good and good things bad.
 
Orthanc,

although you are 100% right, I think taking away most ground units will also take away most of the fun. Not sure if we want to do that :)

I didn't mention the effect of mutual destruction of both las-gunner and shielded unit for a simple reason - was sure it's not possible to implement in Civ3.

That's also the reason why I think it makes sense to introduce the regular projectile weapons (cannon shells and rockets). They can have controlled speed thus allowing them to penetrate shields (Note: it is possible to penetrate shield because it is tweaked to reflect all projectiles at certain preset speed). Although I do realize that it's shields that made the whole idea of warfare in Dune universe to be carried either by chemical or bio weapons, assassins, traitors and other medieval means of politics it still makes sense to use heavy weaponry to deal with large masses of attackers. After all, Sardaukar weren't individual warriors a la James Bond or small squad units like SWAT. There were Legions of them that suggests they were large scale armed force with their own equipment. Since they also were used to seize planetary control they must be able to take over any kind of encampment (given that they were fighting against the whole planet), including heavy fortified bases. That would be impossible to achieve without mobile heavy artillery. Common sense suggests that there must be various kinds of weapons, because by having single "master" weapon you're limiting types of attacks that you can carry out and increasing chances for defending side to be able to withstand your offensive and even succeed in counter attack, since your strong and weak sides are very well known.

One more thought - as the history suggests, there were no major battles won with single prevaling weapon. It was always a combination of various forces that helped to achieve the victory. In other words - you need air support or artillery to suppress defences, you need mobile armors to break through defence lines and you need infantry to keep what you take over.

And one more thing :)
zealus, that's an excellent idea about the sorta reverse-global warming role
Click to expand...

Thanks but that wasn't my idea :) Although I do like it a lot!
 
While you're right, there are few refferences to weapons and stuff in the original books (which is a good thing because books like that are awful) there are quite a few in the Prelude to Dune series by Brian Herbert (FH's son). Generally Tanks as such are hovertanks which would make them usable on Dune presumably.
 
It would be great if someone who read the prequel books could contribute more to the cause. Also, this would allow better tech tree that possibly will result in more interesting gameplay :)
 
Well, I suppose I could possibly answer a few questions and stuff... it was quite a while ago that I read them though, and I'm not all that desperate to read them again (partially because I have more important things to spend my time reading and partially because they're not that good anyway - just superficial action really) - PM me if there's anything you want to know and if I can remember, I'll tell you.

On the whole though they do point out how very much Spice is the currency of the universe, so you should make that your gold (if you can actually do that, I don't know) - X tons spice or whatever.

I have a fleeting memory of the mention of some kind of vehicle called a Hammerhead in one of the later ones of the original books, by the way. Some kind of war machine or something (tank, possibly?) - it didn't get much description but the name suggests a certain shape, doesn't it?

The books are clear to stress though that earth-bound things are generally discouraged on Dune itself (another reason why I found the games not-too-good, plus the fact all Westwood games are identical!), with the exception of Fremen infantry. Most war machines seem to be gunships of some sort, which you could have as land units (most people tend to use modern helicopters as land units).
 
as for water...

water should probably a luxury resource, cos its rare and very important.

how about having the 'water of life' (i think that was it) as a strategic resource?
 
as to terrain...

alot of graphics modding:

grasslands = desert.........mvmt = 2
plains = rocky desert.......mvmt = 2....(safe from worms)
forest = spice patch........mvmt = 2....(so spice can appear on desert/ rocky desert squares)
desert = rock foundation..mvmt = 1....(for city buidings, safe from worms)
mountains = mountains....mvmt = 3....(safe from worms)
hills = dunes..................mvmt = 3....(slower movement)
coast = ?
sea = drumming sand......mvmt = 3....(high risk of worm attack)
ocean = deep desert......mvmt = 2

that way most units cannot traverse deep deserts without a transport.

for barbs...
normal = desert storm
adv = worms
naval = deep desert worms

desert storms are powerful cruise missiles with a high defence, so any unit that walks into it dies, however the storm does dissapate.
worms can only move in non rock terrain (through wheeled unit flag)
deep desert worms move slowly through deep desert, and very quickly through drumming sands (ignore terrain cost, to simulate a higher risk of worm attack on drumming sands)
 
oh
and instead of rivers, have canyons (dried up ones)

and seeing as spice patch are forests, instead of 'clear forest', its 'harvest', and instead of 'plant forest', its 'seed spice'
 
The water for life could be a Freman wonder because only they have access to it. In the visual productions of the books (i.e. the fillm and mini series) there are hevy weapons used by the extra dune armies. In the scenes where the Harkonan defeat the Atradies they use heavy vehicles and weapons in their assult. In the final battle where the Freman attack the Harkonan the Harkonan again use heavy weaponry against the invaders.

As far as the tech tree, and the scenario as a whole, is concerned how about setting it when the Imperial presence on Irakis is just being established. This way you could build up to the Harkonan downfall and revenge against the Atradies. Tech could be seen as both development and trade amongst the houses, with the freman have some seperate technology to the Imperial houses (i.e. making their tech civ percific).

As far as units are concerned I like the idea of Ornethopters as the Key units, and if we make the scenario an arcipelico based scenario then we can have islands of rock surrounded by oceans of desert. Imperial armies did bring tracked vehicles to Dune (as is shown in the Harkonan assault) but they were limited.

With the resources why not change the colony icon/mining to one of a spice harvester? As harvesters were only used to gather spice they would not be the best unit to be workers, so a static representation that is vulnarable to worms makes sense.

Another idea I had was to limit the number of none fremen towns/cities. How about giving each starting civ a set number of cities, then making the colony unit available far later along the tech tree. This way you can utilise colonies and make them far more strategic.
 
Hopefully at least some of you know how to do this, if not just ask and I'll try and explain it. I think it would be best to have air units move like they did in civ 2 for this mod, since they are such a crucial part of warfare in Dune and the civ3 method of using them is very limiting for those purposes.

Maybe to balance accuracy and playability we can sort of have two major groups of units. I tried to express this in a way in my previous post, but i'll spell it out here. There should be the laser and sheild units, which would include the heaviest infantry and assault Ornithopters, then more "normal" units weilding projectile weapons and knives which would be Fremen, assasins, desert infantry, some artillery units, maybe hovertanks (although in the books I have read I don't think I ever saw them mentioned) and various lighter Ornithopers. I mentioned what the balance of attack and defense should be for these unit types in my previous post, along with how we might use that balance to represnt the laser-sheild mutual destruction effect. So this way we could use some fun and normal units but still stay fairly accurate to the novels.

I've read Dune and the prequel by Brian Herbert House Atreides, and I'm planning to get to the rest ASAP, but for all those who have read the books after Dune I'm wondering something. Is there EVER a house Odos metioned or did Westwood completely make them up for their games?
 
No, there is no house Ordos whatsoever. Presumably they wanted to include a third side.
 
NO ORDOS!!!!
house ordos is an insult to the world of dune...

any comments on the terrain ideas i posted?
 
Not sure why most units should not be able to cross the desert without transport... After all, it's just sand, the only problem with crossing the desert was the worm attacks... So I think no need to twist it that much, just give it high movement penalty so all units except worms, fremen and whatever will ride the worms would move very slow.

Next thought - if you don't want no Ordos (personally I have no problem with them) then there must be some other force to be around. As I have said before - Fremen are too precios to be allies (and are too essential to tech tree ideas) to allow them to have their own civ. Having all Ix, Tleilaxu, Empire, Navigator's Guild and whatnot as a separate civs will reduce the tech tree to very generic terms as well as remove things like buildings/wonder that will allow all houses to use Ix/Tleilaxu techs. I mean - you must agree that researching how to build gholas for Atreides and Tleilaxu must be way too different things :)

I have skimmed through Dune miniseries today and took some captures. As soon as I look through them I'll post a link here so they will be available for viewing. Two things I must mention: first - all fights in miniseries are melee combats where Sardaukar and Harkonnen troops can't fire their guns right and therefore exterminated by dirty people with knives. Unbelievable. Second - the only two air units depicted are some ornithopters that resemble castrated Ka-52 (I think I got the model right - it's the russian helicopter with angled front instead of being rounded). So not much input from that. If I'll find the disk with original movie I'll look through that as well, but as far as I remember there was even less tech depicted because the book essentially is not about the arms :)
 
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