DW01: Whistling In The Dark

[Bucephalus]

DW, since we have the bare bones of a team, how about rolling a few starts?

You said that you have a few civs in mind - what are they?

For my part, I have no preferences, either with civs or difficulty level - I'm happy to go with the flow - but these things usually take a while to sort out, so it might be an idea to begin the process.

 

[Rodent]

A short bit of Advice-

When you Start making Units, remember to make units with a long and fruitful upgrade path. That means horsemen over Swordsmen

 

[Optional]

When you Start making Units, remember to make units with a long and fruitful upgrade path. That means horsemen over Swordsmen

Lurker's pun:Hey Rodent, were you not the guy who preferred swords to horses? Did you have a change of heart, perhaps?

And Templar X; is Scotland your holiday destination? Have you been here before? If you want to ask me something or whatever; PM me!

 

[DWetzel]

DW, since we have the bare bones of a team, how about rolling a few starts?

You said that you have a few civs in mind - what are they?

Well, after extensive (ha!) testing and a bit of thinking about things, I think there are maybe four or five civs that would be best for this.

In no particular order:

1. Maya. Can build granary right away, more likely to get a useful settler factory set up, Industrious means we won't need quite as many workers (which could be good).

2. Mongols. Can build granary right away, also start with WC and cheap barracks so we can get a couple of early military factories set up, and Expansionist means we can actually scout out some useful city sites.

3. China. Partly for flavor, partly for Industrious as commented above, and I dig the UU. No turn one granary is the suck though. Militaristic might net us a few more leaders, which we may need.

4. Germany. Probably not a very good choice, but one I'd done a fair bit of testing with. Downside is it's a slower start, upside is militaristic plus some useful military units right away.

I'm of course open to other suggestions.

 

[Elephantium]

Interesting concept. I've kind of been bitten by the Civ bug again, so count me in

As for civ choices, Maya sounds good.

 

[Bucephalus]

Welcome back, Tusker!

DW. of those civs mentioned, I'd also go with Smokey - especially since it's a Space shot.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I've always found the Maya to be a good choice for a new variant, having 2 good traits and a decent UU makes it a go for me. Germany, China and the Mongols are definitely lower on my list.

 

[DWetzel]

That sounds unanimous (or close enough to be irrelevant). I'll roll up a few and see what we get.

 

[DWetzel]

Well, that was fairly easy. Using the patented hand-rolling, I either got the five starts below or marshy bleech everywhere. Very little borderline.

Large map, all settings right in the middle for terrain/landform/etc., roaming barbs, 11 random opponents.

Here they are, in relative splendor:

1:

Spoiler :

2:

Spoiler :

3:

Spoiler :

4:

Spoiler :

5:

Spoiler :

 

[Elephantium]

Start 1: Lots of rivers! The capital could be a 6-turn settler factory (4 if there's another cow in the fog -- and I think I see one to the SE of the first cow). Two tusks up!

Start 2: Two cows means a 4-turn settler factory. No rivers means we'll be commerce-poor for the early stages of the game. Neutral.

Start 3: The river is nice, but we'll expand rather slowly with only a game for bonus food. The forests and hills will cost us a lot of early worker turns. Two tusks down.

Start 4: With all the flood plains, we'll have plenty of food, but I don't see enough shields for a 4-turn settler factory. OTOH, the lux will be nice. Neutral.

Start 5: It could be a 6-8-8-10 settler factory starting at pop 5. The lux is a nice addition. Two tusks up!

My vote is for Start 5 - settle on the forest to the NE, build a Granary, and then pump out settlers. It's kind of risky starting strategy -- we might lose a Settler or two to barbs before we can get a Warrior factory going -- but I don't think we have a choice with this variant.

 

[Bucephalus]

1) Could make a settler factory without a second beef (Maya are agricultural, Tusker ) but I'm a bit wary of all those mountains - and is that jungle to the West? Ugh.

2) Lots of good grassland, and the promise of more all around on a Large map. No rivers in the immediate vicinity, though - depends on which level we are playing whether that matters too much.

3) Coastal start not much use in this variant, and too much work to be done to make it a good site.

4) I like this start. Plenty of food, two BG's visible, and the wine on the hill will act as a third, plus it appears to be a good central location.

5) The sugar won't act as a food bonus until we are out of despotism, so a slow start here.

I would go with 2 if we are below DG, 4 if not.

Are they 'continents' maps, DW?

 

[Bucephalus]

On further reflection, a river start is largely irrelevant to this variant; as the capital is going to produce settlers ad infinitum, it will never contribute much in the way of commerce.

Unless of course the spirit of the variant allows us to abandon the city, and build anew; I would say it doesn't, but that's DW's call.

 

[Optional]

Lurker's comment: Start 2 is on the edge of the map; that's tundra straight to the south. You might be struggling to find a sweet water spot for your first town after the capital, but you could put it on the same lake.
Start 5 does indeed look nice. Sugar won't act as a food bonus, indeed, but with 2 floodplains and Agri you're gonna be alright for growth anyway, won't you?
A lux might be more beneficial here compared to a regular game, as you won't have MP straight away, and workers will probably come later as well, so a nearby lux seems practical.

 

[Optional]

Two tusks up!

Lurker's comment: What would you need for the trunk to go up, Elephantium?

 

[Bucephalus]

Lurker's comment: Start 2 is on the edge of the map; that's tundra straight to the south. You might be struggling to find a sweet water spot for your first town after the capital, but you could put it on the same lake.

The position on the map is not going to have much relevance, I suspect; I will be surprised if we don't move the Palace at some stage.

Start 5 does indeed look nice. Sugar won't act as a food bonus, indeed, but with 2 floodplains and Agri you're gonna be alright for growth anyway, won't you?
A lux might be more beneficial here compared to a regular game, as you won't have MP straight away, and workers will probably come later as well, so a nearby lux seems practical.

You're right - I have a irrational prejudice regarding plains tiles; it's not a bad start, but my choices remain unaltered.

 

[Elephantium]

On further reflection, a river start is largely irrelevant to this variant; as the capital is going to produce settlers ad infinitum, it will never contribute much in the way of commerce.

Unless of course the spirit of the variant allows us to abandon the city, and build anew; I would say it doesn't, but that's DW's call.

No, but we can build cities CxxC with the capital and use all those river tiles pretty quickly.

Oh, and re: Start 1, I realized that the Maya are agricultural about halfway through my analysis -- and I didn't go back to correct my list for Start 1

...and for Start 5, I don't think it would be that slow a start - we'd irrigate the flood plains for the extra food (they *do* get 3 despotism food when irrigated, right?), and then the BGs and maybe the forest would provide all the shields we needed.

 

[Bucephalus]

No, but we can build cities CxxC with the capital and use all those river tiles pretty quickly.

That's true.

Glad to see you can still keep me on my toes, mate.

 

[DWetzel]

A few thoughts:

1. It's Emperor level, 70% continents, normal/temperate/4byo (like I said, right down the middle).

2. Yes, I did contemplate allowing abandoning cities. I think there's a decent level of cost involved in doing so, so I don't see a specific reason to disallow it.

 

[Elephantium]

...as for Start 4, I didn't take the food from the wine hill into account. I'll change my rating to "One tusk up"

We'd be able to get a settler factory up and running as of turn 46, based on worker moves:

T1 - move onto FP
T2 - irrigate
T3 - irrigate
T4 - irrigate
T5 - road
T6 - road
T7 - move onto 2nd FP
T8-T12 - road/irrigate
T13 - move onto BG
T14-15 - road BG
T16 - mine BG
T17 - mine BG
T18 - mine BG
T19 - mine BG
T20 - move onto 2nd BG
T21-27 - road/mine BG
T28 - move onto Wine hill.
T29-41 - road and mine Wine hill. (giving us 5 extra fpt and 7 spt at size 5)
T42 - move onto 1st regular grassland
T43-46 - mine grassland (8 spt at size 6)

 

[Bucephalus]

A few thoughts:

1. It's Emperor level, 70% continents, normal/temperate/4byo (like I said, right down the middle).

Then I'd say - with this team - that the start is largely irrelevant.

2. Yes, I did contemplate allowing abandoning cities. I think there's a decent level of cost involved in doing so, so I don't see a specific reason to disallow it.

OK, that's cool.