Early Expansion and Maintenance

[Hassar]

How many cities do you usually build pre-CoL? I play on Monarch standard/continents/default settings and maintenance is being a huge problem early in the game, I usually build 3-4 cities including the capital, then axe rush the closest neighbor at around 900bc and raze/pillage all but one of his cities, and finally take all his techs for peace treaty once I get alphabet. Now this is where I have no idea what to do, once I'm done with the rush, should I mass-build settlers and expand without caring about how ridiculously low my science slider will be just to claim the land and deny it to my opponents or should I build more cities slowly so that my science doesn't get under 50-60%?

Something I've been thinking about to solve a part of the problem would be to switch to caste system as soon as I get CoL and run enough merchants to support the maintenance cost of my extra cities, so technically it would allow me to fill the unclaimed land with my cities without getting killed by maintenance. I didn't test it yet though.

 

[axident]

How many cities do you usually build pre-CoL? I play on Monarch standard/continents/default settings and maintenance is being a huge problem early in the game, I usually build 3-4 cities including the capital, then axe rush the closest neighbor at around 900bc and raze/pillage all but one of his cities, and finally take all his techs for peace treaty once I get alphabet. Now this is where I have no idea what to do, once I'm done with the rush, should I mass-build settlers and expand without caring about how ridiculously low my science slider will be just to claim the land and deny it to my opponents or should I build more cities slowly so that my science doesn't get under 50-60%?

Something I've been thinking about to solve a part of the problem would be to switch to caste system as soon as I get CoL and run enough merchants to support the maintenance cost of my extra cities, so technically it would allow me to fill the unclaimed land with my cities without getting killed by maintenance. I didn't test it yet though.

3-6 depending on the situation (standard size map).. do I have heavy commercial cities that can blunt the shock of maintenance? Is a land grab really critical right now, right there? Am I about to annex my neighbor's territory and thus should not found too many of my own? Organized even without cheap courthouses changes things. If I'm riding low on beaker output, I'll tend toward 3-4.

 

[Ruler]

It depends on how many beakers you make and how much money you got. From my experience 20-25 beakers is pretty good at the beginning keep expanding as long your're making that amount of beakers per turn you shouldn't have problems to get CoL. After CoL take every "good" city you can possible find, start them with grannies, monuments and courthouses you fall behind but eventually you will catch up and as for improvements start with couple farms to help with grow if you don't have any food resources then maybe one hill for production and cottage the rest.

"Catch up" term is something what every good Civ player has to know.

 

[CTH]

I don't worry so much when my economy runs low in the begining, and the science slide could be at low % but high on science anyway. 10 cities on 60% could very well give more science than 5 cities on 100%, and when the cities get larger you will get back any possible science lost and get much more.
But, it is all depending on what kind of tactic you are planing on use. If you want to go peaceful to late game you should absolutly get many early cities, you may be after in the begining but in the end you will have tanks long before the oponents.
At least that is what my experience tells me

 

[DaveMcW]

Massing settlers is ok, but you need to mass workers and lay down cottages too.

 

[futurehermit]

Massing settlers is ok, but you need to mass workers and lay down cottages too.

yes, exactly, and also you need to not delay currency and col. if i am REXing i go for pottery and then don't delay hereditary rule, currency, and col. lately i've been going for hr and col via priesthood and then currency afterward via alpha. that's been ok. but it is also important to get the valuable techs up the math path.

 

[slobberinbear]

I hear you, Hassar. If you go for an pre-AD war, you are left with the unsatisfying options of keeping all of your foe's cities and going bankrupt or razing most of 'em and risking partisans and a premature and to your conquest.

Optimally, you should have (or be close to getting) monarchy, code of laws, a religion with a holy shrine, and/or the pyramids when you wage an early war of conquest. Monarchy and the pyramids allow civics that allow bigger cities, which help in commerce/beaker production, hopefully offsetting some of the maintenance costs. Founding a religion and its shrine will give you more cash and happiness for bigger cities.

If you can't get the better civics or courthouses on line soon, your treasury will dry up and you may find yourself with a bunch of cities, striking military units and a 0% research slider. Not good.

Here are some of my typical strategies for early warring:

1. Build the Oracle, do a CoL slingshot, switch to Caste System when cities are big, use Great Prophet to build Confucian shrine
2. Build the Pyramids, switch to Representation, grow cities, use Great Engineer to rush another early wonder with an economic or happy bonus.
3. Build Stonehenge, tech to Monarchy, found a religion, use Great Prophet to get religion or build shrine

This can be done with any leader type and setup, but being Industrious, having nearby stone/marble, and/or having a lot of wood to chop helps.

All of this assumes that your early war involves several enemy cities and a fight between 1000 BC and 1 AD. If you can catch the enemy early, when you are he are both still underdeveloped (3 cities or less), you can get away with a pure military rush without major economic consequences.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

How many cities do you usually build pre-CoL?

Until the Science slider is at 20%. But, I run Specialist Economies, so the Science slider is mostly empty.

The way I see it, after settling your initial & cities, new cities need only to support their increased burden to be deemed necessary.

So if plopping down a city is going to cost you a total of 6 (note that new cities exponentially increase every other city's number of cities maintenance), that city needs to have a Gold Mine or enough + to run 2 Scientists.

After CoL, [Caste System & Courthouses] your options abound ... but that's a whole other post.

I think the second most important element of REXing is defending your cities, because if you spread too thin too fast, your neighbor might thank you for building cities for him.

 

[futurehermit]

I think the second most important element of REXing is defending your cities, because if you spread too thin too fast, your neighbor might thank you for building cities for him.

Soooo true. Good ol' Freddy thought I was building a huge empire for him last night. His power graph was 2-3x mine when he attacked with about 10 units a mix of axes/spears with a longbow. I was in desperate straits, but he gave me enough warning that I was able to whip a pile of axes that turned into maces as I had just completed machinery. Poor guy. My power graph spiked to be equal to his within 2-3 turns of him declaring. I mopped up his stack. I would've counter-attacked but his empire was very distant. I was shocked frankly that he had attacked. I figured I was completely safe with Freddy being reasonably peaceful and distant and I had Hannibal boxed in on a peninsula with no horses or iron and he only had 3 cities after losing Utica (jewish holy city) to a barb invasion of 4 spears that was intended for my empire but beelined Utica instead I was amazed at that!!! I was like "crap, that city only has 2 warriors, I"m going to lose it...upgrade and whip axes now!" Then the spears turned around and marched on Utica seeking easier, and holier, plunder