Early game without Bronze Working

[InFlux5]

Warlords v2.00 - Monarch level

Ok so I'm looking for some tips from experienced players on how to do well in the early game without Bronze Working. If I don't go for this tech it feels like I'm groping in the dark, and I usually fall behind. Opening up chopping, slavery, and (with bronze) Axemen, I feel like I simply must get Bronze Working ASAP.

There are two main reasons why this bothers me. The first is that if I don't start with Mining I feel like my hands are tied for the first 20 turns or so when it comes to research. I feel obligated to put off other techs in order to get to BW, and this often puts me behind, even with the benefits that BW brings, because I'm still getting my first Settler out too late.

The second reason is just that I want more variety in my games. It gets boring when every game starts out with a bee-line to BW, followed by chopping my first Settler. On the other hand, if I do anything else I feel like my start is way too slow. Without chopping I am usually founding my 2nd city as the AI is founding its 3rd.

So what are the alternatives? I don't see many that don't make my early game feel like it's crawling along at a snail's pace.

One option is to go for Pottery early. This opens up cottages and granaries. (This is a particularly appealing option when you start with The Wheel and Agriculture/Fishing. I am trying to develop a good starting strat as the Ottomans, so I am particularly interested in leveraging early Pottery/granaries.) Cottages will add little commerce this early; and getting my second city online is usually my main concern at this point, not adding coins. Getting a granary up ASAP doesn't seem to give me much without slavery to go with it. And the happiness cap is low at this stage of the game, so a ballooning city isn't much of an asset. All in all, early Pottery still feels like my game is too slow.

Another option is to go for military techs other than BW, such as Archery or AH. These can open up Archers (Skirmishers) or Chariots; but these units don't seem powerful enough for early conquest, so I don't see how this option helps my early expansion.

When starting with Mysticism, an early religion is an option. This can pay off when you are grabbing for land against a non-Creative civ, and the culture boost can sometimes make up for the fact that your settler came out late. This may be the best alternative to BW - but only if you happen to start with Mysticism.

So how do I get my early game going without BW, when Settlers take 25 turns to build? That's an eternity to have my only city producing no units and not growing. I'm addicted to chop rushing and trying to kick the habit. Please help!

 

[jimbob27]

Get Rhye's 24 civ world map, and play as the carthaginians. They get a good starting position, but it doesn't have any forests or metals anywhere near. To play that civ you're forced into an alternative strategy, using horses, elephants, catapults and archers for combat, and relying heavily on the sea for your commerce.

It almost feels like their position is designed to force you to avoid all the regular strategies, and do something completely different. You can do some fantasic thing from their position, but an axe-rush certainly isn't one of them.

 

[Meatbuster]

In a recent Monarch game of mine, I picked Cyrus, who starts with Wheel and Agri. I go for Animal Husbandry while I wait for my city to go up to size 2, where I build a worker, then size 3, where I build/chop a settler.

The worker builds and hooks up the pasture to Persepolis while the settler is building. It's a long time to finish Mining + Bronze, so I don't get to forest-chop the settler until it was about halfway done.

Since I started AH, I already knew where the horses were, so I used my settler there, resulting in early Immortals that not only destroyed any Barbarian Axemen but also helped conquer a neighbor.

***

Another game, I was using Mali, got a coastal start. I grabbed fishing first, then didn't build my worker+settler until size 4 (and they did build fast due to coastal food resources), meanwhile building nothing but warriors and fishing boats. Eventually I researched Archery then built Skirmishers to conquer a neighbor's city. I actually picked up Bronze Working quite late, but I didn't need any more than mass-building of suicidal skirmishers to finish off Peter.

***

If you're feeling suicidal, how about this: start with Hunting and either of Wheel or Agriculture. Grab Pottery (and Animal Husbandry if you need it). Go Archery to defend your first cities, build settlers slowly. Then go straight for Construction and start building nothing but Catapults (and Elephants if you're lucky enough to have Ivory).

 

[Jorunkun]

If you are playing emperor or above, I think you are ill advised not to beeline for a tech that unlocks a strategic ressource, to guard against barbs (sans archery) and allow for an early rush against a neighbour. And in the vast majority of games, bronze working is your best bet in this, for all the reasons you mention.

Your best alternative start is probably animal husbandry. Especially if you have sheep, cow or pigs in your fat cross, it has an immediate use; or if your UU requires horses. Chariots are actually not bad at taking cities. AH is also a good shortcut to writing.

If you start with mysticism, you can go for a religious game. I have made this deal with myself that I will always try for an early religion under these circumstances to make the game more interesting, but I`ll be the first to admit its a chancey move: Half the time you are beaten to the early religions, and even if you get them, they get you into trouble diplomatically more often than not.

But really, your early game will have to include bw, so why get it later when you can get it earlier?

 

[Rast]

I've tried archery-first research builds and I find that I simply must have axes - archers are great for city defense but can't really do the job in the field, and you simply must get pottery quickly before maintenance costs spiral out of control (especially on emp.). So, I'd still suggest beelining to it, but if you're looking to do things a bit differently in the early game here's a few tricks I find work very well, especially on Monarch.

Build warriors at first. The first civ you find steal their worker and turn the AIs handicap into your advantage. Then come back with a stack of warriors and rush their capital while it still only has one or two archers defending it and (maybe) 20% cultural bonus. Rule of thumb - you need two warriors to kill one archer. Now you have two cities and a worker and you didn't have to build the worker OR a settler and your 2nd city is in a guaranteed good spot. Chop out a settler and found a 3rd city near copper if you need to and you'll be in a good position to go into the classical era. Obviously works best on Marathon game speed.

 

[Meatbuster]

Correction: you need two "Quechua" to kill one archer. Warriors will do only if they're close enough. And what about your home base? You need to turn barbarians off for that.

I don't like having barbarians off. That only would mean I get past the first part of the game 100%.

As for the mention of religion, I don't know what's wrong with me, everytime I try to go for 1 early religion (Confucianism doesn't count) in a game that's Monarch or worse, I often lose the game (despite not revolting to it to keep the peace).

 

[slowcar]

With Warlords chariots are the best anti-barbarian units ever.
i usually go for bronze after i unlocked 1-2 worker-techs (if i don't start with them), it's early enough to get copper when you finish your settler which will take some time anyhow.
going religion first delays this of course, but having a religion that spreads to other cities of yours saves obelisks.

if you have a close neighbour worker-stealing is not a bad idea, but you have to be prepared that the AI may come with archers while you have only warriors to defend. I do this if an AI is close.

 

[InFlux5]

Thanks for the replies. I don't have much time but I had a quick comment on working stealing: it doesn't work any more.

Ok, sometimes it does. But just as I had started to incorporate this into my strategy in Vanilla they went and made it so that you can't move the worker on the same turn. The AI's Archers make quick work of my Warrior, and get the Worker back on the same turn most of the time. This is all assuming that their Worker happens to be on the perimeter of their border, next to my Warrior. (This is frequently not the case.) So I don't find worker-stealing to be something I can count on any more.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Answer is simple: Get Construction fast.
No problem and no army can counter catamassing.

 

[Wodan]

Things that come to mind that haven't been mentioned yet:

-- without BW on Monarch+ you're going to need something to fight barbs. The best choice are chariots. This means Animal husbandry. Luckily it's a pretty cheap tech, and chariots themselves are pretty cheap. This is never a bad choice because chariots are the barb-killer of choice even after you get BW, up until the barbs have swordsmen (which is a long time).

-- if you have starting elephants then hunting is a very attractive first tech. Plus, having a scout to go hut popping is nice.

-- other starting resources can force starting tech choices, of course... if you have a lot of pigs/cows, or fish/crabs/clams, then it's hard to go wrong with those.

-- it also doesn't take 25 turns to generate a settler if you use food resources. This means that getting animal husbandry or fishing is not necessarily a poor second choice to BW and whipping your first settler.

-- even if you don't have food resources, if you're imperialistic, then it also doesn't take 25 turns to generate a settler. Just be careful: you need to build the settler in a good production city, not a good food city (which is what most people are used to doing). Imperialistic boosts settler production from hammers but not food. (I get the feeling they'll fix this with the upcoming patch.) Which isn't necessarily bad... you can use your food city to make workers and your production cities to make settlers. (Keep in mind that an early game "production city" is simply any city with a couple of mines or elephants.)

Wodan

 

[Leifmk]

if you have a close neighbour worker-stealing is not a bad idea, but you have to be prepared that the AI may come with archers while you have only warriors to defend. I do this if an AI is close.

Early worker-stealing has served me well in my last several games, that way I don't have to spend a lot of turns delaying city growth while building my first worker so I can start closing the gap with the AI civs (who get free workers on Monarch). Instead I get to spend those turns building either useful city improvements or warriors that I will need to garrison my future cities. I find it is often better to take workers not from my closest neighbours but from a bit further away: It is less likely that they'll have an offensive unit close enough to my capital to let them counterattack before I manage to talk them into a peace treaty, and if they carry a grudge in the later game it doesn't matter as much if there are less hostile neighbours in between.

 

[Armorydave]

Thanks for the replies. I don't have much time but I had a quick comment on working stealing: it doesn't work any more.

I still do it in almost every game. Works fine, you just have to plan it out a little better.

 

[InFlux5]

Basically I find worker-stealing too risky a strategy to rely on. At least half the time I plan on doing it I send my Warrior to their border and he never finds himself next to their Worker. I suppose if I were more patient and continued to have him "patrol" their border eventually an opportunity would open up. But it seems like often times there isn't an opportunity and I feel like my early game has been delayed since I don't have a Worker.

This is all assuming, of course, that you have a neighbor close enough to steal a Worker from. On many maps this won't be the case. (But I usually play Terra so I usually have plenty of neighbors.)

 

[Armorydave]

I suppose if I were more patient and continued to have him "patrol" their border eventually an opportunity would open up.

That's the ticket. For the record, if it goes too long I build a worker but that rarely happens. Best to grab them when they are 2 squares from the capital, preferably in woods or hills and across a river.

 

[karr1255]

In the beginning there aren't a lot of things to build, but 4 warriors aren't necasserily a bad thing. You will need those eventually to protect cities. Problems with barbs on warlords can be solved by chariots, they are great barb counters now.
But generally BW is just a great tech, whipping and metal units are essential.
The only thing that keeps me from it for a while is an early religion and a peaceful opening. Good example here is egypt, with the horse powered UU.