Early impressions – what’s your civ tier list so far?

[Ornen]

hey all, I figure it’s not too early to start discussing how we’d rate the base game civs. so that we’re talking apples to apples, I would encourage the following scale:

• S: so powerful they make the game significantly easier
• A: a strong set of bonuses put them ahead of the other civs
• B: a very solid, reasonable set of bonuses. consider this ‘strong, but balanced’
• C: decent, but a little underwhelming. not great, not terrible.
• D: does not seem to measure up to other civs. could use a boost.
• F: straight up bad. worse than nothing

I’m going to divide civs by era, and I’d also encourage anyone else to do the same.

 

[Ornen]

my (incomplete) lists based on my first few playthroughs:

Antiquity
S – Mayans
A – Greece
B – Rome, Mississippi, Khmer
C – Aksum
D – none so far

Exploration
S – Hawaii, Abbasid
A – Spain
B – none so far
C – none so far
D – Normans, possibly Inca

my general sense so far is that Antiquity is more balanced than Exploration. I’m not even going to comment on Modern – in my experience so far, the victory conditions are very imbalanced, and civ selection is downstream of that. culture victory can often be achieved so quickly that these civs often don’t matter much… so I don’t really have any comment re specific Modern civ balance as of yet.

more on my picks:

Mayans, Hawaii, and Abbasids all feel very powerful to me, to the point that they trivialize their eras. Mayans are maybe a cut above. they get arguably the best UU, the best UD, the best wonder, and a very strong set of abilities & traditions. Hawaii’s culture gen is absolutely busted, though culture feels less strong than science currently (you don’t need culture gen to achieve legacy/victory conditions). I’m not 100% set on Abbasids as the only time I played them I started Maya, but their science feels very strong.

Greece has a very powerful set of traditions that are useful throughout eras, most notably their city-state bonus. great district, great UU.

Rome felt very muscular. a strong unified set of bonuses around military, culture, and expansion. Khmer’s specialist traditions are useful, especially in the exploration era, though I do miss having a settlement limit increase. Mississippihas nice bonuses to growth + a strong UU.

Aksum feels a little like a one-trick pony to me. their one useful trick (gold on resources) is pretty damn good, but their two UUs feel redundant, navy doesn’t matter much in Antiquity, and you can’t take your boats with you to the next era. lack of settlement limit on top of all that makes them a C for me.

Spain gets a powerful set of bonuses for new world expansion, and I love the conquistadors. strong unique district too.

Normans feel like a strictly worse version of Spain to me, with some added culture bonuses that are laughable in comparison to, say, Hawai’i. +2 culture on the palace? that’s cute, Norman

I hesitate to rank a civ without playing them, but based on the maps I’ve played, I give the Inca a tentative D. their kit is almost entirely oriented around mountains, which simply do not appear often enough in the games I’ve played. they seem incredibly situational, and I think they need either more mountains or some non-mountain abilities to compensate.

 

[Manpanzee]

I agree that Antiquity civs seem relatively balanced, while Exploration civs seem greatly imbalanced. The weaker civs in Exploration are far behind the stronger ones, and there are multiple that I’d almost never pick if I was strictly prioritizing power every game. Modern civ choice seems to basically not matter for either Cultural or Economic victory, but may be more interesting for the other two types.


Aksum is extremely slept on. They have a few nice features, the most important of which is the Hawlit UI. This thing is cheap to buy and can pay for itself relatively quickly, combo’ing with the UA for a major gold snowball. It’s spammable in towns, and you can carpet the map to carry a ton of gold income into Exploration – IMO one of the strongest ways to really launch the snowball in the second age. Probably an A tier civ for me, B tier at worst.

Something else to note about Aksum is that their UU quickly becomes cheaper to make than a merchant and unlocks at a completely different point on the trees, sometimes enabling trade routes significantly earlier than you’d otherwise get them. At worst, you’re saving some hammers versus merchants and retaining a “free” ship to help out with barbs.


Majapahit is up there with the top-tier Exploration civs. Biggest features of their kit are:

• +1 hammer +1 culture on all marine tiles, which is easy passive income from the fishing towns you want to spam out anyway
• +4 culture on all quarters, which is nice enough if played normally, but can also make it cost-effective to buy all the cheap antiquity warehouse buildings everywhere

Majapahit also gets Borobudur (+2 food +2 happiness on all quarters) as their associated wonder. This is already a contender for best Exploration wonder, and it combos with their unique boost to give crazy yields from spamming out every cheap quarter you can possibly fit.

Majapahit and Hawaii have a lot of similarities, and it’s possible that Hawaii’s power leaves Majapahit overshadowed. I haven’t played Hawaii yet and don’t have the personal experience to really see how they measure up. But I think Majapahit is strong enough to fall into S tier even if they end up coming out on the losing side of that comparison.

 

[Ornen]

Majapahit! can't believe I left them out, as I just played them in my last game.

they felt very well balanced to me, I would give them a solid B (but could see them in A as well). the specialist bonuses stand out, and alongside the easy relic generation, they're very well set up for both science & culture legacies in the exploration era.

 

[Leucarum]

Honestly I don't think a tier list is as easy in Civ7 - the civs have a lot of depth to their kits and you can usually find something to hang a hook off. As an example, Aksum felt weaker at first glance, but their traditions are really good - and hawilti can stack up fast. The mid tiers are all pretty close for me.

I'd mostly point at 4 civs that I've played which felt too good and are likely in S tier because stuff needs to be toned down.
Persia - their events give them so many immortals. The rest of their abilities are average but you just drown the map in (really good) bodies. The kit is fine but their events could use refinement. Winning millitary is just trivial as them...
Maya - the UQ is amazing, and having a strong science district carry through the whole game at the start of the next era is amazing. If you take a science golden age it can almost feel like you didn't lose any science.
Hawai'i - +2 culture on all marine tiles is bonkers. I haven't played Majapahit but I suspect +1 culture / production would also be problematic.
Qing - Most modern civs are effectively blank becsuse the age ends too quickly but the Qing trade routes are hugely impactful. You just drown in yields and the science loss is negligible...

...Unlike the only Civ I'd rate in F tier - Mughals. The bottleneck to win any victory in modern is science or culture. Getting a big hit to both is really bad, and their purchasing power doesn't make up for it. I suspect they'll always be the slowest civ to win a game. I've played then and not found anything which makes up for their malus... I'd love to know if anyone else has!

 

[vorlon_mi]

...Unlike the only Civ I'd rate in F tier - Mughals. The bottleneck to win any victory in modern is science or culture. Getting a big hit to both is really bad, and their purchasing power doesn't make up for it. I suspect they'll always be the slowest civ to win a game. I've played then and not found anything which makes up for their malus... I'd love to know if anyone else has!

I've played the Mughals once. Ben Franklin: Rome --> Norman --> Mughals. No, I didn't take America because I had played America the previous game and wanted to try out another. I was swimming in gold, so I used their last civic to purchase wonders with gold. I was definitely playing wide, scooping up a lot of towns from Amina. She was perma-mad at me, for taking her towns that she had settled on her precious, beloved desert plains. I was able to build the World's Fair in her old capital, which she had made into a production powerhouse.

Having lots of gold also meant I could purchase rail stations and factories, slotting a LOT of factory resources. Very nearly founded the World Bank before the World's Fair finished.

I guess I'm saying that having a leader whose traits supplement the Mughal weakness can work.

 

[Ornen]

Mughal was actually well regarded in a reddit thread on tiers: reddit.com/r/civ/comments/1ixdnfi/my_personal_tier_list_after_200_hours_of_gameplay/

haven’t played them yet, but the penalty they get seems to be not much compared to the bonus. probably the best way to win with them is just to buy a bunch of explorers & rush hegemony for culture victory

(same way to win with anyone really. and why I personally think the VCs need to be balanced before the modern civs can be balances)

 

[Yzman]

Surprised I haven't heard anyone discuss Songhai. They are S tier. I can win an exploration economic victory without ever going to the distant lands. I was getting 3 treasure fleets every 8 turns or so from my home cities. That got me to 30 relatively quickly. Just plan for cities in rivers. Egypt is good leading into them.

 

[Fluffball]

Having played the Norman's their unique district can be strong if placed on the appropriate rough terrain (+8 happiness) and building medevil walls around them (up to +10 culture).

You also get 'free' mounted units which are strong...any civ with unique infantry unit is automatically dropped down a tier for me.

 

[rocksinmypath]

I'm generally skeptical of civs that have navigable river biases and bonuses. Reasons are:

- Sailing is the most expensive of the starting techs, and it basically only gives you food, whose value falls off very rapidly.
- Navigable river tiles usually provide little production.
- Navigable rivers make districting harder.
- Buildings that provide bonuses to navigable river tiles often need to be put on navigable rivers.
- Most critically of all, navigable river tiles do not provide resources.

 

[enKage]

Surprised I haven't heard anyone discuss Songhai. They are S tier. I can win an exploration economic victory without ever going to the distant lands. I was getting 3 treasure fleets every 8 turns or so from my home cities. That got me to 30 relatively quickly. Just plan for cities in rivers. Egypt is good leading into them.

Because Songhai is weak. Their UI is weak and competes with buildings (commerce / prod / science). You need gold on tiles? Just befriend yellow independents and build their improvement in less restricting area.
Their UU is weak, get bonus only on resources
They carry no useful traditions to next era - and this makesSonghai F tier.

if you already have multiple cities on navigable rivers, why would anyone choose Songhai over Shawnee, who carry to next era huge discount on influence and massive hammers?

 

[Yzman]

Fairly certain that songhai gets their +5 everywhere right now which is probably a glitch but very strong. And like I said, completing treasure fleets without distant lands is useful because at least in my games, it seems there are very few good areas to settle. It's really hit or miss. They may not be S, but no way they are F currently.

Because Songhai is weak. Their UI is weak and competes with buildings (commerce / prod / science). You need gold on tiles? Just befriend yellow independents and build their improvement in less restricting area.
Their UU is weak, get bonus only on resources
They carry no useful traditions to next era - and this makesSonghai F tier.

if you already have multiple cities on navigable rivers, why would anyone choose Songhai over Shawnee, who carry to next era huge discount on influence and massive hammers?

 

[enKage]

Antuiqity

• S: so powerful they make the game significantly easier

Maya because of a district, Carthage because of Numidian Cavalry

• A: a strong set of bonuses put them ahead of the other civs

Missisipians. Solid food / gold / unique unit
Greece. Influence and great traditions

• B: a very solid, reasonable set of bonuses. consider this ‘strong, but balanced’

Egypt. Wonders, nice traditions and probably the best great people from the era. Only 3 civics is good, does not distract from main civic tree.

Han - as long as you don't fall too much into wall construction, they have everything midtier should have. Strong unit + backup for science and codex

Aksum. If they had +1 settlement in civics, they would be A, but having lower capacity while not offering happy faces to compensate brings Aksum down. Carpet / diamond of culture however is AMAZING! and allows easy and fast opening of exploration age. Aksum + Augustus = OMG

• C: decent, but a little underwhelming. not great, not terrible.

Maurya - I don't know... on papaer it should be higher, but somehow I cannot go good enough with them. However, with some leaders (Charlie, Asokas) broken. I just don't have a feeling maurya work with anyione else (ok, maybe Himiko cultural)

Persia - weak UI, but +2 settlement.

• D: does not seem to measure up to other civs. could use a boost.

Rome: you are basically railroad to use their tradition, which are situatonal. I like free promotion though

Khmer. Pityful traditions (the only one useful has a mirror next age), Baray is boosting the only yield you don't need anymore when you unlock it. The only reason it is not F tier is faster unlocked Angkhor Wat. Worse than ROme, even though the same tier or simply I cannot utilise them

• F: straight up bad. worse than nothing

 

[enKage]

Exploration

• S: so powerful they make the game significantly easier

Abbasids - science science science. But their great person is annoying

Shawnee - traditions: 50% towards befriending and progress = so many free techs and other stuff. +2 hammers on majority of world = gamebreaker

Mongolia - ultimate destroyer of home continent. No need to even go to new world and fantastic tradition of production in conquered cities.
Because the goal is usually win as fast as possible, here is the right civ
+ teleportation ability
+ cheap commanders to spam to have more in modern

• A: a strong set of bonuses put them ahead of the other civs

Chola - even 4 times hitting navy. Thank you, it is enough.
and cheap fleet commanders

• B: a very solid, reasonable set of bonuses. consider this ‘strong, but balanced’

Ming - not my playstyle, but centralised science is good, especially with good traditions slotted. Ming Great Wall is fantastic.

• C: decent, but a little underwhelming. not great, not terrible.

Majapahit - strong boost to getting the easiest legacy. In terms of navy loses to Chola. Borobrodur saves them from being lower

Hawaii - I don't understand the hype. OK, swimming in culture is nice, but do you really settle so haevily coastal? Land tiles are still better and you are forced to expand into no productive tiles to get that culture. Culture from fishing villages is too little for me.
Do you know what tile is better than fishing boats with Hawaiian cuture? Forest with ming great wall on it. Or mine with Ming great wall on it. Or farm with Ming great wall on it. Or any plain/desert/tundra forest with Shawnees +2hammers and colossal heads on it
Their unique unit is very weak.
Their unique improvement is nothing special (culture from farms? you have no farms, because you build fishing boats)
Too many conflicts here for me to put Hawaii higher. Even though culture on food warehouse is nice, three times I played I ended up with hard times at the beginning of modern era, with settlements expanded into marine instead of into production.

• D: does not seem to measure up to other civs. could use a boost.

Inca - the biggest problem with Inca is that it is so few rough tiles near mountains. And early Macchu Picchu is not guaranteed with being restricted to tropical mountain.
In terms of exploration however, they are fantastic.
unfortunately beside Rome and Mississipians no synergies between eras.

Spain is so situational, that cannot be higher. Sometimes is great, but in most games tyou basically know, you would not ebven consider Spain. You need a lot of settlements in new world. And a lot of cities in homeworld with access to coast. Too many "lot ofs"

Norman - too much micro with wall building. Free cav is nice, but better free cav is at the top of the tier list: Mongolia.
The best in playing Normans is that noone is playing Normans and turtling.

• F: straight up bad. worse than nothing

Songhai - they give no useful traditions for next age. Caravanserai conflicts with buildings and better use uniques from golden boys, from any era. treasure fleets on home continent help with adding the final one economic legacy, but it is not enough. And you need a lot of cities on navigable rivers to benefit from it. But if you have multiple cities on navigable rivers, why choose Songhai instead of Shawnee?
In terms of having economic legacy completed I would rather take Chola and capture the entire coast to have this legacy secured, at the same time completing the other. Or Mongolia. Or Majapahit.

Fairly certain that songhai gets their +5 everywhere right now which is probably a glitch but very strong. And like I said, completing treasure fleets without distant lands is useful because at least in my games, it seems there are very few good areas to settle. It's really hit or miss. They may not be S, but no way they are F currently.

Great. Shawnee infantry gets +1 per unique empire resource. In practice above 5, regardless of glitch

 

[chazzycat]

It's true that Songhai's traditions are bad. To me they are all about spamming the unique improvement. Caravanserai are very strong, and if you started as Aksum should have plenty of plains/desert. I would say they are definitely situational overall due to those terrain requirements on the UI, but when things line up are actually very strong. The navigable river thing is a side benefit not the core aspect.

 

[enKage]

It's true that Songhai's traditions are bad. To me they are all about spamming the unique improvement. Caravanserai are very strong, and if you started as Aksum should have plenty of plains/desert. I would say they are definitely situational overall due to those terrain requirements on the UI, but when things line up are actually very strong. The navigable river thing is a side benefit not the core aspect.

If I started as Aksum, I would have already a carpet of their unique improvement. If i had a lot of plain/desert, I would still go straight for Shawnee, as I would get +2 hammers without even need to build anything on that tile and/or build on that tile any improvement from trade/science/cultural/military city state with an occasional Shawnee UI for better food.

I was so hyped about those treasure fleets and Songhai in general at the beginning. But later I found out, they simply do not work. The weakest civ not only of an era, but I think in the whole game and they need some serious buff.
Just to mention the best part of their set is unique merchant, as you can buy him and get quite significant refund.
Songhai has strong military focus in most games. If devs add something to their war path, they may be playable. Gold via wars, this is Songhai I would like to see.

 

[chazzycat]

You can upgrade Hawilts to caravanserai, they give a lot more gold and can be built on top of mines as well as flat. They actually compliment each other pretty well especially with Xerxes for extra culture on all that UI spam.

 

[Siptah]

I'm really surprised the patch didn't touch Abbasids in yesterday's patch. I mean, I'm happy they didn't - I think the nerfs Hawaii and Majapahit are too harsh. But to me, Abbasids are clearly the best civ if you want a strong science game. They have a great quarter, very good traditions, and mostly useful great persons. Add the Mamluk which can be a great UU, albeit a bit circumstantial. And then their associated wonder is really good as well. The traditions also make the start into the 3rd age so much faster. I haven't tried any of the changed civs after the patch, but I would put Abbasids in S tier.

 

[Melkus]

Abbasids are clearly the best civ if you want a strong science game

Yes, it's not THE one thing, but they just have too much stuff cumulatively. Almost everything they get is powerful. The gold bonus when you add a specialist smoothes things out when the start is slow.
The quarter, the unique guys, the wonder, the bonuses... everything works in almost every situation.

I'm playing Majapahit now with a weak cultural lead-in and it's taking forever to get to the useful stuff. And the higher specialist limit doesn't do a lot at the start either. They get stronger mid Explo, but it's tough to even get to the nerfed parts.

 

[enKage]

So they did not nerf Abbasids, but at least added Bulgaria, which is Maya on steroids (just check their traditions). I think Abbasids may not be meta anymore.
And Maya into Bulgaria with Ada's lev9 memento is just not funny