[BTS] Early rush possible?

[Tonny]

Merry Christmas to all!

Settings:
Small Tiny (edit) Terra map with Elizabeth and 4 AI's (WvO, Isabella, Gandhi and Mansa). It's challenge xx, game 7 for a space victory.

I'm having a very interesting start at this game. Currently I'm at turn 42 (2320 BC) having 3 cities and 3 workers. I've stolen 2 workers (1 from Gandhi and 1 from WvO). At the moment I still have the opportunity to steal another worker from WvO, but I think that will be overkill and makes future attacks on WvO more difficult.
Writing is teched (turn 42) and I opened borders with Isabella, Mansa and Gandhi. WvO won't, because I'm his worst enemy. I've set research to Mathematics next, but it can change to any other tech.
All AI, but Gandhi have switched to Slavery already.

The reason why I'm starting this thread is because of my horrible skills on early rushes.

Here's my empire...

Spoiler London :

I'd say that is a nice capital to start with.
Corn, Copper, Gold, 3 floodplains, 7 riverside grasslands, 3 riverside plains and Silk.

Spoiler York :

A nice 2nd city with lots of production potential and it can help London with 3 riverside grassland cottages. Sharing Corn, Copper and 1 floodplain farm makes micro-ing these tiles with London very interesting. Even Nottingham can use the Copper and farm for more micro play.

Spoiler Nottingham :

I put it there because it can work the Gold for the time being (keeping research high) and blocking Gandhi. Later it can become a powerhouse production city and can help London with 1 cottage.

Spoiler surroundings :

To the west is WvO, to the south is Mansa, to the east (and very close) is Gandhi. Further east you can find Isabella. Up north there's room to expand for 4 more cities. I already put some signs where I'd like to settle.

What I would like to try is to rush Gandhi and eliminate him. He's the founder of Buddhism (Delhi) and Judaism (Bombay). Bombay is settled on a spot where I would like to have my own city as a helper for London. 1N of the most eastern cow is Delhi. This city look juicy to me and has Horses in it's BFC. Not visible in these images I have a Scout (hut) far east on the southern borders of Isabella's land. He will travel north and back to scout Delhi's surroundings before I want to rush.

At the moment I have 2 Axes built and all cities are dedicated to build more for a rush.
My calculations on how to proceed...

Spoiler :

London:
t42: size 4 working Copper, 2 fp's and phmine. Food 0/28 +1, Axe 6/35 + 10.
t43: size 4 working Copper, fpfarm, fp and phmine. Food 1/28 + 2, Axe 16/35 + 10.
t44: size 4 working Copper, fpfarm, fp and phmine. Food 3/28 + 2, Axe 26/35 + 10.
t45: size 4 working Corn, fpfarm and 2 fp's. Food 5/28 + 10, Axe 0/35 + 1(overflow) + 1. Axe ready.
t46: size 4 and will 2 pop whip to size 2 working Corn and fpfarm. Food 15/24 + 8, Axe 2/35 + 61.
t47: size 2 working Corn and fpfarm. Food 23/24 + 8, Axe 0/35 + 28(overflow) + 1. Axe ready.
t48: size 3 working Corn, fpfarm and fp. Food 7/26 + 9, Axe 29/35 + 1.
t49: size 3 working Corn, fpfarm and fp. Food 16/26 + 9, Axe 30/35 + 1.
t50: size 3 working Corn, fpfarm and fp. Food 15/26 + 9, Axe 31/35 + 1.
t51: size 4 and will 1 pop whip to size 3 working Corn, fpfarm and fp. Food 8/24 + 8. Axe 32/35 + 31.
t52: size 3 working Corn, fpfarm and fp. Food 16/24 + 8. ??? 0/??? + 28(overflow) + 1. Axe ready.
Now I don't know what to do here. If I let London grow to size 4 again it will have 1 unhappy citizen if I don't have a unit as military police.

I have multiple options for a build:
Warriors (quick and cheap and problem solved) My western warrior can also go back and function as a military police instead.
Axes (rush)
Settler (to secure the northern lands)
Worker (a bit too much, already have 3)
Granary (just because it's a useful building)
Library (too soon IMO)

York:
t42: size 3 working Corn, Cow and fpfarm. Food 6/26 + 10, Axe 31/35 + 3.
t43: size 3 and will 1 pop whip to size 2 working Corn and Cow. Food 16/24 + 8. Axe 34/35 + 33.
t44: size 3 working Corn, Cow and phmine. Food 0/26 + 6, Axe 0/35 + 32(overflow) + 7. Axe ready.
t45: size 3 working Copper, Cow and phmine. Food 6/26 + 1. Axe 0/35 + 4(overflow) + 12. Axe ready.
t46: size 3 working Copper, Cow and phmine. Food 7/26 + 1. Axe 16/35 + 12.
t47: size 3 working Copper, Cow and phmine. Food 8/26 + 1. Axe 28/35 + 12.
t48: size 3 working Copper, Cow and phmine. Food 9/26 + 1. Axe 0/35 + 5(overflow) + 12. Axe ready.
t49: size 3 working Copper, Cow and phmine. Food 10/26 + 1. Axe 17/35 + 12.
t50: size 3 working Copper, Cow and phmine. Food 11/26 + 1. Axe 29/35 + 12.
t51: size 3 working Copper, Cow and phmine. Food 12/26 + 1. ??? 0/??? + 6(overflow) +12. Axe ready.
Enough options from here on... Just don't know.

Nottingham:
Easy for now... Staying at size 1 working Gold and building Axes.
With 2 chops it will have built 3 Axes by turn 51.
But what to do when Gold is reclaimed by London. Farm the fp's and grow onto mines for units/settlers/workers?

By my calculations I'll have 12 Axes on turn 52.
A bit more precise:
t42: 2 Axes
t44: 3 Axes
t45: 6 Axes
t47: 7 Axes
t48: 9 Axes
t51: 11 Axes
t52: 12 Axes

A lot of information and questions as you can see, but it all boils down to one question first.
When to rush who and why? (and how)
Feel free to critique my thoughts.

Sorry... no save.

 

[krikav]

I did a quick attempt at just that challenge (#7) but never played it out.
What settings did you use and why?

I can only say that I'm amazed at your ahead of time calculations to the point I feel intimidated and feel that I can't help you out.
Regarding when to attack, I would attack Bombay the turn I had two times his archers within 2 tiles of the city. Or perhaps less if I have more axes closer by.
I would attack from 2S of Bombay, moving NE to cut of his supply line.

Ghandi is extremly likely to make peace, and one can really declare at him at will and get ceasefires easy.

I would try to befriend WvO, and let him expand to the NW region and develop it for me.

 

[Tonny]

I took a peek at Swordnboard's submitted save and copied the settings:

Spoiler :

Flat: If you are on the western part of the continent you're golden. The new continent is always west.
Low sea level: More cities...
Aggressive AI: faster cease fires

I can only say that I'm amazed at your ahead of time calculations to the point I feel intimidated and feel that I can't help you out.

Making calculations is one thing. Makes the right decisions based on them is another...

I would try to befriend WvO, and let him expand to the NW region and develop it for me.

As stated above, securing the western part of the continent is important. Therefor I'd like to attack him also. Axepult or Elepult probably.

I would attack from 2S of Bombay, moving NE to cut of his supply line.

Good point. The last Axes can come from the west to DOW 1 or 2 turns earlier. Will direct the first ones south.

Regarding when to attack, I would attack Bombay the turn I had two times his archers within 2 tiles of the city. Or perhaps less if I have more axes closer by.

I find this to be quite low on numbers. It's a gamble which can break this start.

 

[sampsa]

I'd just take Bombay ASAP. I suppose 9 axes is 100%, assuming he has 2 archers there. He often whips 3rd and might have a stray archer that is able to reach the city. Then towards capturing capital asap. Would be useful to drive his fast workers to the cap before capturing.

 

[Tonny]

I'd just take Bombay ASAP. I suppose 9 axes is 100%, assuming he has 2 archers there. He often whips 3rd and might have a stray archer that is able to reach the city. Then towards capturing capital asap. Would be useful to drive his fast workers to the cap before capturing.

I'll have 9 axes by turn 48 making a DOW possible on turn 49. Gandhi has a worker 1N of Bombay mining the Gold, probably it will go to the fp next making it possible to capture it on DOW. Having 1 Axe next to the fp doesn't hurt.
Regarding taking the Cap. Probably Gandhi will have 4 archers ready when I'll get there. Assuming the worst case scenario (losing 3 at Bombay) I'll have 9 Axes to attack it on turn 56. What are my chances then?

 

[sampsa]

Regarding taking the Cap. Probably Gandhi will have 4 archers ready when I'll get there. Assuming the worst case scenario (losing 3 at Bombay) I'll have 9 Axes to attack it on turn 56. What are my chances then?

Sounds like a gamble. I guess you need to cease fire and declare again soon. Makes capturing workers a lot easier, too.

 

[Tonny]

Sounds like a gamble. I guess you need to cease fire and declare again soon. Makes capturing workers a lot easier, too.

I was thinking the same. A CF after capturing Bombay.
But here's the catch... A total of 3 DOW's on Gandhi will hurt my diplo with Mansa and I'll probably become his worst enemy at -2 making early trades difficult.
With this start I'd like to go Math-Masonry-Construction for early Catapults to take on WvO (or even Isabella first and WvO second). Come to think of it... I have nothing to trade early on...

 

[sampsa]

But here's the catch... A total of 3 DOW's on Gandhi will hurt my diplo with Mansa and I'll probably become his worst enemy at -2 making early trades difficult.

Yep, annoying that he didn't found a religion to hate on another reli founders. When he reaches alpha you can always tech gift (would also be useful to speed him up) and I guess with religions founded it's likely he goes there?

 

[Tonny]

When he reaches alpha you can always tech gift (would also be useful to speed him up)

Good point! I'll keep that in mind when I'll get there.

But first the rush and post turn 50 play to consider. Especially what to build and how to grow my cities when I'm done building my first wave of Axes.

As I stand now:
turn 49: DOW Gandhi and capture Bombay. Hopefully/probably a worker captured too.
Then a CF and check how many Axes I have left. Meanwhile my scout will have explored Gandhi's cap.
Stop here and make new decisions on how to take on Delhi.

If I'm correct, Math will come around turn 56. (But no forests to chop). Or I can go Masonry first (ready on turn 46) and Math will come at around turn 60. Hopefully by then I'll have captured Delhi and can use those forests to fuel my war machine. (Reminder to myself... cottages!!! to fuel research up to construction)

 

[Tonny]

The first wave went well. I had 9 axes by turn 48 and DOW'ed Gandhi on t49.
I guessed right that the fast worker would be on the fp the turn I declare. (1 turn later and it would have been gone, since it just finished the road on the farmed fp)
I had to attack from the Gold tile, since Bombay popped borders, but it gave me no problems.

Attack summary:
t49:
Axe captures worker and another Axe kills scout 1W of Bombay gaining 1xp and remaining at 100% health.
t50:
Axe1 gets killed at 23.04% odds reducing Archer1 to 1.4 health.
Axe2 gets killed at 23.04% odds reducing Archer2 to 1.4 health.
Axe3 kills Archer3 at 30.61% odds remaining at 3.0 health and gaining 4xp.
Axe4 kills Archer1 at 96.46% odds remaining at 3.2 health and gaining 2xp.
Axe5 (1xp already) kills Archer2 at 96.46% odds remaining at 1.4 health and gaining 2xp (now at 3xp).
Bombay captured and 30. No buildings, but city is holy Jew and has Buddhism. Nice for fast border pop.

Meanwhile my scout explored Delhi and found that there were 2 archers at turn 49. Isabella is very close to Gandhi also.

pics:
London + York + Nottingham + Bombay

Spoiler :

Delhi + Isabella's land

Spoiler :

Mansa + WvO

Spoiler :

One worker (1SE of London) still has moves left to do something.
I can have 3 Axes ready next turn, But how to use London hasn't been decided yet.
At best I'll have 10 Axes to attack Delhi on t56.
How to proceed?

 

[sampsa]

Guess you should expect to meet 4 archers in Delhi. Maybe you can test what your odds will be then with your army. Would be good to have one unit approaching from another direction to drive workers into city. Alternative is to cease fire asap and declare again some turns later.

 

[Tonny]

Would be good to have one unit approaching from another direction to drive workers into city.

Will a scout do the trick? It's already on the other side. Would it lure 1 archer from Delhi out too?

 

[sampsa]

Nope, workers ignore scouts. Might lure an archer out though.

 

[Anysense]

My fovourite in space games is construction rush from 6-7 cities aroud t70-75. If you stay at 4 cities and go straight after Construction (usually I research Currency first), then it might be even earlier, around t60-65.
I don't like axe rushing, not on Deity anyway. Can't do much with just axemen and it delays Construction.

 

[Tonny]

Played until t52. Delhi (40% cultural defense) has 2 Archers (1 CG1 and 1 unpromoted). I took a CF to declare again on t55 with 10 Axes and 1 Warrior (on the other side) available. I will also use the Scout for a possible suicide lure. Delhi will/can be attacked on t57 and will most likely have 4 Archers.
3 of my Axes have promotions available. I already promoted 1 (3XP) to CR1 to speed up the healing process. The other 2 (2XP and 4XP) still remain umpromoted until the last moment when I know the odds.

Spoiler Troops on t56 :

Regarding overall empire development I'm thinking about building a Library in London (which can be 2 pop whipped on t60) and building a Granary in York (which can be 2 pop whipped on t56). This is assuming that I'll be successful at killing Gandhi. I won't go into details about micro management. Along the way 2 more axes will be built (t55 York and t58 Nottingham) to be ready for a 3rd rush with Catapults.

Spoiler Current cities :

Maybe I want too much, but I'd also like to settle the wheat/cow spot NW asap to block WvO from reaching my 2 possible clam cities.
Any help/thoughts appreciated.

 

[Tonny]

I don't like axe rushing, not on Deity anyway.

Lucky for me this is Immortal then.

 

[Gumbolt]

Axe rushes on immortal are never a given. My usual rule of thumb is to attack the capital first to stop him whipping units. 10-11 axes for his capital.

Not fond of stagnating a city to run a gold resource. Guess you will have catapults soon enough. Isabella is a warmonger so not to be trusted.

 

[Tonny]

Update:
I played until t57 halfway.
DOW Gandhi on t55. My Warrior from the NE was approaching Delhi, but encountered an Archer on the way. Therefor he stayed 3NE of Delhi fortifying on the plains hill 1NE of the Archer. My Axes and Scout went ahead as planned. On t56 Gandhi decided to attack my Warrior with his Archer and naturally won. Very good for me, since that's 1 Archer less in Delhi when I attack it.

Situation on t57:
Delhi has 4 Archers (CG1 + C1 + 1 at 25% fortify bonus + 1 just whipped) and a Worker (nice!!!).

Battles:
1. Axe CR1 with 2XP vs Archer CG1 (5.00 vs 6.45) at 18.50% odds. Archer dead! Axe gains 5XP and has 0.6/5 health left.
2. Axe vs Archer (25% fortified) (5.00 vs 6.45) at 18.50% odds. Axe dead, Archer remains at 2.0/3 health.
3. Axe vs Archer C1 (5.00 vs 6.00) at 21.85% odds. Axe dead, Archer remains at 0.8/3 health.
4. Axe vs Archer (5.00 vs 5.70) at 24.47% odds. Axe dead, Archer remains at 1.4/3 health.
5. Axe vs Archer 2.0/3 health (5.00 vs 4.25) at 66.11% odds. Archer dead! Axe gains 3XP and has 1.0/5 health left.
6. Axe CR1 with 3XP vs Archer 1.4/3 health (5.00 vs 2.34) at 99.18% odds. Archer dead! Axe gains 1XP and has 5.0/5 health left.
7. Axe C1 with 4XP vs Archer C1 0.8/3 health (5.50 vs 1.68) at 99.96% odds. Archer dead! Axe gains 1XP and has 5.0/5 health left.

Delhi at size 3 with a Granary captured with only 3 Axes and 1 Warrior lost. The Worker is mine too! . I received 112 too for my troubles. The Indian civilization is no more.

 

[Tonny]

Update:
I'm at turn 67 now with Masonry coming in next turn and can have Construction teched at turn 74.

Cities:

Spoiler London :

Spoiler York :

Spoiler Nottingham :

Spoiler Bombay :

Spoiler Delhi :

I've let them grow as much as possible.
London is the only city with a Library and has 40/50 into Barracks already. Currently building a Worker.
York already has Barracks in place and is building a Settler for the Wheat/Cow spot.
Nottingham is currently working on a Granary to be 1 pop whipped.
Bombay finishes Granary aided with 1 chop next turn.
Delhi has Barracks on 49/50 and is currently building a Worker.

Spoiler Surroundings :

Now I'm at a point that I don't know what to do from here on.
I'd like to attack either Isabella or WvO. However, the land is not that great.
Barcelona seems worthy because it already has a Granary and a Lighthouse.
Seville is ok, because it has Rice (she has to farm it for me) and lakes to work.
Madrid however is far away and a bit dry for my taste.
WvO's surroundings even look worse to me.
On the other hand I could expand peacefully claiming the 2 clam spots and the Wheat/Cow spot giving me a total of 8 cities. Even Deer to the far NW is an option.
Getting commerce out of this map seems difficult.

What would you advise me to do?

 

[Anysense]

Once you have Biology and SP/Corps any land is good. Usually, the sooner you conquer everybody the better. As its Terra, you may claim all the mainland without winning domination, just leave one AI alive with 1 city. Since it is Tiny/Immortal, making vassals is rather pointless, they will be no use to you.